Field Landing Pattern

Greetings all!

Stupid question guys...

Ever since the Hornet came out, i've been doing most Carrier landings, i've started a few days ago doing some shore landings... Since the Hornet came out in May, i'Ve done about only 3 shore landings until 5 days ago.

I'm just having some questionning here on the typical shore landing pattern, i'm talking here normal sore break, and not FCLP as officialy goes form the Carrier Break procedures to practice.

But more likely shore landings, from what i've read, breaks depends on each airfield's rules (As stated from NATOPS « See figure 7-2. Enter the pattern as prescribed by local course rules. »), lots of them are 1,000 ft some are 1,200 ft AGL, some others 1,500 ft, some 800 ft etc.. so since i don't know each airfield's rules from the Persian Gulf map, i mainly practice at 1,200 ft.

My question is (no details in the NATOPS on Fig 7.2 as per when we descent), since it's pretty high, how does one execute the downind, on Carrier pattern, we do a level break, so once establish downwind, we drop from 800 ft to 600ft, and when we start the 180 leg, we are already at 600 ft....

So for that case, do we ;

1- Drop from 1,200 ft to 600 ft also downwind, but that means we'll have to extend the downind way passed the runway threshold at our 45 degrees left shoulder, wuntil we get 600 ft.

or

2- Keep level at 1,200 and start a descent when initiating the 180 leg, with mostly runway'S threshold at 45 degrees of our left shoulder, ending with a huge rate of descent, ending with a more or less more than -1,000 FPM (which gets me to think, i thought the Hornet's recommended maximum RoD is about 800 FPM and less).

or

3- What i simply do since i have no clues how to perform it, once i get downind after my wing level turn, i simply start a -650 FPM to -750 FPM descent, initiate my 180 turn when the runway's threashold is about slightly passed my heads level, more likely like the carrier's abeam position and waiting to see the rundown. And continue a more or less -650 FPM to -750 FPM and adjusting in the turn as anticipating where i'll want my flight Patch Marker to be on the runway for the touch down.

Does anyone knows the real answer please, no speculations, no « what i do is » etc.. as i can land any of the possible ways i stated, i just wanna know the proper way to do it if someones knows the right procedures.

Here's a video of how i've done it, or if you rather have, i also attached the Track done in the Open Beta's last version as week of September 3.

Any helps is apreciated, thanks fellow flyers. :) :pilotfly:

As far as I know you do standard pattern using the airport charts. The USN pilot's do the break pattern at their airfields for practice. I did read somewhere? That USN pilots sometimes will do a carrier break pattern at other airfields when they ask ATC if it's possible or allowed? If not they will stick to the charts. If allowed, then it will always be practiced the same as it's done at the boat.

The main difference is the downwind is longer to allow for a stationary runway and you may need to correct for more crosswind as the runway doesn't turn into the wind.

This video by Wags shows how to do it if allowed at the airfield, it would always be practiced correctly without any special versions as not to introduce negative training when back at the boat.

As far as I know you do standard pattern using the airport charts. The USN pilot's do the break pattern at their airfields for practice. I did read somewhere? That USN pilots sometimes will do a carrier break pattern at other airfields when they ask ATC if it's possible or allowed? If not they will stick to the charts. If allowed, then it will always be practiced the same as it's done at the boat.

 

The main difference is the downwind is longer to allow for a stationary runway and you may need to correct for more crosswind as the runway doesn't turn into the wind.

 

This video by Wags shows how to do it if allowed at the airfield, it would always be practiced correctly without any special versions as not to introduce negative training when back at the boat.

As i said, we do not have the charts, but what i want to know is, if we do at 1,200 ft or what ever, where we descent etc.. if you go back at the video you link of me of Waggs, reads the comments, and read the ex-pilot (Matthew McGee) comments on Shore landings, you'll understand what i mean. :) As i said, his video is based on FCLP as per carrier landings, this i know all of it, i want to know if, done higher than 800 ft. When done at 800 ft, which is likely the Carrier break pattern, we do it as landing on the carrier, but when done at 1,000 ft, 1,200 ft, 1,500 ft, how do we loose the altitude, how is it done, my quesiton is how we do it higher than the 800 ft pattern. :) In other words when done at 800 ft i perfectly know how is done since i'Ve done tons of Carrier landings, though doing it properly on my side is a different story :) i Want to know how the lost of 2,000, 4, 000 and 7, 000 more ft is lost or droped.

The 476 are working on all the charts for PG now I believe. So they must be out there, not looked myself.

I would say that you do not allow for the height of the carrier and fly it "by the numbers" the same as you do at the carrier and as wags does in the video. Wags has USN pilots to speak to and I find it hard that they would not have explain that when flying and recording this video.

The 476 are working on all the charts for PG now I believe. So they must be out there, not looked myself.

 

 

 

I would say that you do not allow for the height of the carrier and fly it "by the numbers" the same as you do at the carrier and as wags does in the video. Wags has USN pilots to speak to and I find it hard that they would not have explain that when flying and recording this video.

Thanks for the chart, but i never learned to read chart and i don't find anywhere on there the Break altitude, even so, it doesn'T tellme how to execute it, besides the holding pattern.. From what i'Ve understood on my side, is, Shore landing, if not done at Carrier numbers, most likely looks alike a USAF break which usualy is around 1,000 ft, that is what i am trying to find for the Hornet. Again, how we achieve it. First thing that comes to our mind when we start leaning the Hornet is the Carrier things, as Shore stuff doesn't interest us so all we end up to are is the carrier numbers and that is all we see, but thigns is, in RL quite a fe other stuff happens outside it, 800 ft is pretty clear as mostly on seas, there is no mountains clsoe by, no buildings. This is why i made my post, as to know if anymore knows how to execute this out when done higher than 800 ft, and what is the Hornet maximum required Rate of Descent for landings, is it 800 ft as i mostly read, or as i'Ve seen in a video from a stydent, -1000 FT is ok or did he skrewed up? :)

The 476 are working on all the charts for PG now I believe. So they must be out there, not looked myself.

 

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/Wy75Ev.png

 

I would say that you do not allow for the height of the carrier and fly it "by the numbers" the same as you do at the carrier and as wags does in the video. Wags has USN pilots to speak to and I find it hard that they would not have explain that when flying and recording this video.

The charts have nothing to do with an overhead pattern being discussed. Overheads are VMC, where as the charts are for IMC situations. The charts describe a straight-in approach using TACAN.

The charts have nothing to do with an overhead pattern being discussed. Overheads are VMC, where as the charts are for IMC situations. The charts describe a straight-in approach using TACAN.

If your landing at an airport on PG what do you go off IRL? You cannot just go into a carrier break pattern. Whats the standard pattern the other aircraft be using then?

First post airfield and rules was asked.

So far what i found on a forums closest to my answer is the folowing, still miss some info, but form what i understand, the break is done at X altitude then you descend to the airports Traffic Pattern Altitude, which is what we would find on a chart, which we don't have, so i presume i need to find a real chart with sorta 1,200 ft as break or 1,000 and i'll have my answer. Here's the post found.

« You start at the initial. At NBC ours was at 2,500 ft and 5 miles. You come inbound from the initial aligned with the runway and either maintain initial altitude or in our case descend to 1,500. This is 500 ft above pattern altitude for a reason. It allows twr to bring you in over any local pattern traffic and easily sequence you in. Generally a level left break at 350 kts 5 Gs (not sure on G) and then descend to TPA. Then it's a normal pattern only your turns are not squared off. One 180 degree turn for break and one 180 turn to final no less than 1/4 mile and 300 ft. Maybe 35 can add but only squared off overhead I've seen is sometimes Air Force when doing combat spread?

That's basic overhead. Carrier Break is a bit different. Initial is the same but break is at 800 ft and TPA is 600ft. I've watched F-18s come in at 450 + knots and probably hit right up against the G limiter in the break. Also seen guys light the burner in the break which is always cool while not really necessary. Speed varied depending how much the guys are pumped up from coming from the boat or whatever ACM they've been doing off shore. No one seems to mind until the airport manager gets ticked off because he's a C-12 guy and spends most of the day behind a desk. Then you have what we did and put controllers on "speeding ticket" watch and write up anyone who exceeds 350 kts at the initial.

But yeah, that's it in a nutshell. Varies by base but you can find the altitudes and procedures in either the AFD, IFR Sup or the Area Planning manual. I agree with 35 AOA, it's not really needed for civilian aircraft unless you fly something extremely slick like say a Glasair. An RV has way too much drag to require an over head.

Oh don't get it confused with a 360 forced landing pattern. That's done over the approach end with throttle at idle in a constant turn while varying the bank angle to simulate an engine out. Two completely different things.»

I don't know what IRL drivers would do as I don't know the rules for the PG. There is limited information on the web for both instrument and visual procedures for the PG.

I just know that the charts are for IMC conditions (pea soup, can't see the ground or the field for the weather). The overhead pattern is a visual pattern aka VMC/VFR, can see the ground and the field.

I do know each base is different IRL, for example Hornet drivers come to Nellis and request a carrier break, tower will deny it every time, and tell them to enter at 3500MSL or 1500AGL. They then fly the standard pattern that every other aircraft flies, which is a downwind at 1500agl, and descend in the base turn.

I don't know what IRL drivers would do as I don't know the rules. I just know that the charts are for IMC conditions (pea soup, can't see the ground for the weather). The overhead pattern is a visual pattern aka VMC/VFR. I do know each base is different IRL, for example Hornet drivers come to Nellis and request a carrier break, tower will deny it every time, and tell them to enter at 3500MSL or 1500AGL. They then fly the standard pattern that every other aircraft flies, which is a downwind at 1500agl, and descend in the base turn.

Thanks, that's what i was wondering, so basicly they keep 1,500 ft downwind until the 180 initial, so basicly they drop no matter the Rate of descent to end up a proper descent for the final?

Thanks, that's what i was wondering, so basicly they keep 1,500 ft downwind until the 180 initial, so basicly they drop no matter the Rate of descent to end up a proper descent for the final?

I'm referring to them landing at a USAF operated field, not every location will have that same rules or flown the same. If they were to land at McCarran Intl, they couldn't fly an overhead...too BUSY.

If your landing at an airport on PG what do you go off IRL? You cannot just go into a carrier break pattern. Whats the standard pattern the other aircraft be using then?

 

First post airfield and rules was asked.

I'd guess with no published guidelines it's general VFR procedure. Intercept the pattern 1000f, downwind, base, turn in.

“ .. An aerodrome publishes a circuit height or pattern altitude, that is, a nominal level above the field at which pilots are required (recommended in the US, FAA AC90-66A Para. 8c[4]) to fly while in the circuit. Unless otherwise specified, the standard recommended pattern height is 1000 ft AGL (above ground level), although a pattern height of 800 ft AGL is common. .. “

Any published guidelines are really the exception to the rule, an adaption and deviation considering the local circumstances, these days mostly noise abatement I’d say (in crowded Europe).

A pilot is considered a captain of a ship, a vessel. He is the potentate of the destination of said vessel.

Until he fc*ks up, then he becomes the little twat that needs a severe dress down, for besmudging the reputation of the company he was keeping.

Fly it the same as you do at the boat, 800/600 pattern with the same abeam distance. Only difference is you turn 15s past the abeam position in order to have the same groove length.

Civilian fields generally have traffic pattern information posted in the IFR Supplement (military)/AFD(civ) (not to be confused with approach plates). Usually turbine aircraft have a 1500’ traffic pattern at civ fields however the “carrier break” is normally requested, and granted as long as the field isn’t busy. It’s not a practice thing, it’s a breaks are fun especially showing off for civilians thing.

For DCS purposes with 0 sky chickens flying around and everyone flying similar aircraft, just do the normal 800’ break and 600’ pattern. Trying to descend from 1500’ at the abeam position sucks.

Fly it the same as you do at the boat, 800/600 pattern with the same abeam distance. Only difference is you turn 15s past the abeam position in order to have the same groove length.

 

Civilian fields generally have traffic pattern information posted in the IFR Supplement (military)/AFD(civ) (not to be confused with approach plates). Usually turbine aircraft have a 1500’ traffic pattern at civ fields however the “carrier break” is normally requested, and granted as long as the field isn’t busy. It’s not a practice thing, it’s a breaks are fun especially showing off for civilians thing.

 

For DCS purposes with 0 sky chickens flying around and everyone flying similar aircraft, just do the normal 800’ break and 600’ pattern. Trying to descend from 1500’ at the abeam position sucks.

Agreed, but i simply wanted to do something diffrent than my over 180is Carrier landings to break the routine. :) Just trying out something different from land to sea just to add some spicy and not always doing the same thing. So if i come in at 1,500 ft, i should jsut extend the downwind 15s? It's jsut for the heck of trying different thing,s i love landing the Hornet so i try many possibilities for diversity, like high wind condition FCLP, now i wanted to try a higher break as per airfields that doesn't allow Carrier altitude breaks for the heck of it.

Agreed, but i simply wanted to do something diffrent than my over 180is Carrier landings to break the routine. :) Just trying out something different from land to sea just to add some spicy and not always doing the same thing. So if i come in at 1,500 ft, i should jsut extend the downwind 15s? It's jsut for the heck of trying different thing,s i love landing the Hornet so i try many possibilities for diversity, like high wind condition FCLP, now i wanted to try a higher break as per airfields that doesn't allow Carrier altitude breaks for the heck of it.

Nope, you turn at the same point to end up with a 15-18s groove length, you just have to stuff the nose and not worry about AOA till short final or you will be too high. Like I said, it’s just annoying. As it stands right now, you can’t even do FCLPs because of the lack of a lens, I’d just keep working at the bot for practice if I were you.

Nope, you turn at the same point to end up with a 15-18s groove length, you just have to stuff the nose and not worry about AOA till short final or you will be too high. Like I said, it’s just annoying. As it stands right now, you can’t even do FCLPs because of the lack of a lens, I’d just keep working at the bot for practice if I were you.

I don't understand why you would turn at the same point. The runway is not moving away. Why don't fly on speed in the downwind?

@Doum76,

your number 2 looks right. I've never seen a different approach.

Overhead Approach

-> initial above pattern altitude when able

-> overhead above pattern altitude

-> level break

-> descent to pattern altitude on the downwind

-> start your 180 at pattern altitude

If not effected by local procedures, you adjust your point at which you start the 180 to the wind like you do at the boat.

as seen in the NATOPS

Overhead at 29:00

I don't know what IRL drivers would do as I don't know the rules for the PG. There is limited information on the web for both instrument and visual procedures for the PG.

 

I just know that the charts are for IMC conditions (pea soup, can't see the ground or the field for the weather). The overhead pattern is a visual pattern aka VMC/VFR, can see the ground and the field.

 

I do know each base is different IRL, for example Hornet drivers come to Nellis and request a carrier break, tower will deny it every time, and tell them to enter at 3500MSL or 1500AGL. They then fly the standard pattern that every other aircraft flies, which is a downwind at 1500agl, and descend in the base turn.

There is tons of information out there about SIDS/STARS, and plenty on how to teach you how to read them. I personally use AIRNAV.com, and airportnavfinder.com if I want specific LAT/LONGS

I don't understand why you would turn at the same point. The runway is not moving away. Why don't fly on speed in the downwind?

 

@Doum76,

 

your number 2 looks right. I've never seen a different approach.

 

Overhead Approach

-> initial above pattern altitude when able

-> overhead above pattern altitude

-> level break

-> descent to pattern altitude on the downwind

-> start your 180 at pattern altitude

 

If not effected by local procedures, you adjust your point at which you start the 180 to the wind like you do at the boat.

 

as seen in the NATOPS

https://i.imgur.com/BE3pGWH.png

 

Overhead at 29:00

[YOUTUBE]jntwZjuz7sc[YOUTUBE]

I was referring to my previous post when asked if you extend farther if you’re flying it at 1500’ instead of 600’. You extend ~15s off the abeam before you reach the 180 at the field, however the 180 changes depending on wind. The correct position for the 180 is defined as where’s you start your turn to arrive at a 15-18s groove length.

I was referring to my previous post when asked if you extend farther if you’re flying it at 1500’ instead of 600’. You extend ~15s off the abeam before you reach the 180 at the field, however the 180 changes depending on wind. The correct position for the 180 is defined as where’s you start your turn to arrive at a 15-18s groove length.

I was referring to my previous post when asked if you extend farther if you’re flying it at 1500’ instead of 600’. You extend ~15s off the abeam before you reach the 180 at the field, however the 180 changes depending on wind. The correct position for the 180 is defined as where’s you start your turn to arrive at a 15-18s groove length.

Then again when one watches Wag's Case I (previous the ICLS), and some IRL footage, Wags 'arrives' in view of the stern on about 200ft @ 12s groove length,

which is I suspect is what is expected from experienced carrier pilots, to arrive short, intercepting the glide slope low (and not making a mess of it),

whilst the official (documented) procedure is to arrive at 600ft, regarded as the ingress point / top of the glideslope/groove,

that's likely not how the captain and XO want their pilots to show up on the deck, it's just too slow.

Too slow is a hazard when in open ocean.

Then again when one watches Wag's Case I (previous the ICLS), and some IRL footage, Wags 'arrives' in view of the stern on about 200ft @ 12s groove length,

 

which is I suspect is what is expected from experienced carrier pilots, to arrive short, intercepting the glide slope low (and not making a mess of it),

 

whilst the official (documented) procedure is to arrive at 600ft, regarded as the ingress point / top of the glideslope/groove,

 

that's likely not how the captain and XO want their pilots to show up on the deck, it's just too slow.

 

Too slow is a hazard when in open ocean.

What? 15-18s is standard, 600’ is pattern altitude, never be low. You start your descent from 600 at the 180

What? 15-18s is standard, 600’ is pattern altitude, never be low. You start your descent from 600 at the 180

Read better, its where you end up in the groove.

Watch the Wags YT.

Also IRL, also f.i. A.E. W. CASE1 Advanced Topics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiVdwkuCrwg

A.E. W. apparently is an actual F18 pilot who flew carriers 16 years ago and flies his procedures from memory, f.i. he doesn’t break ‘astearn’ he breaks ‘when you’re (supposed to) see the light shining through the open below deck hanger doors through and through’ (HINT: DCS .. ?)

He breaks DME 1.3 at 600ft, ends up at 370ft on the groove, which would be 12s or so from trapping.

Wags does the same thing (actually I see 104th server LSO views F-18's showing up really close aft the stern smack on the groove, which is a telltale, this happens when you break as fast as feasible and trained, and end up low and close).

(Edit: which by the way is counter to all those pretty NATOPs diagrams you find here on the forum that show 'on speed' 'level base turns' but apparently this is not what carrier commanders expect their pilots to do)

Flying VFR Recoveries & Closed Patterns in a fighter jet is fun and there seem to be some mutual (NATO?) standards to it that can be found across western countries' armed forces.

- Pattern altitudes are often 500ft GND (above field elevation) for rotorcraft & microlights, 1000ft GND for regular fixed-wing aircraft and 1500ft GND for military 1&2-seated jet aircraft ("fighters").

- Sometimes there are "Entry" points published as compulsory reporting points prior to entering an airbase's CTR (tower control zone).

You pass those on your way to the respective "Initial" point for the active runway.

- The Initials are usually located on the extended runway centerline at a distance of 2-5 NM from threshold.

You pass those descending to, but never below pattern altitude, because there might be aircraft on final below.

From the Initial (passing has to be reported as well) you start your visual approach procedure, called "(360-)Overhead-Approach" or sometimes "Run-In & Break" - in opposite to a "straight-in approach" or pattern entry via downwind as common for civilian VFR operations.

- The "Run-In" from the Inital towards the "Overhead" (the runway) is performed at a still high speed (usually 300-350kt, depending on aircraft type), descending to, but never below pattern altitude which is reached latest at the Overhead.

During the Run-In, Tower will issue sequencing instructions like e.g. "number two behind Eagle on Downwind" or "perform early/late break" to sequence you into other departing & arriving traffic.

If the pattern is full, he might even deny your break into the pattern and order you to "re-home Initial" clear of the pattern for another Run-In.

When flying uncontrolled in the sim environment (no Tower service available), the Run-In is the phase to look-out for other traffic on taxiways, runway(s) & pattern and sequence yourself into it.

Check the runway from above: debris & wreckage are common in multiplayer environments...

- The "Overhead Break" is a level high-bank / high-G 180° speed reduction turn towards left or right downwind.

It is performed somewhere (e.g. one third or halfway) down the runway, or for sequencing earliest over the threshold or if delay required: near the departure end of the runway or even a little beyond that.

You want to lose around 100kts or more here (idle power, maybe airbrakes) to get to configuration speeds and lower gear and flaps on downwind.

- Downwind is flown still at pattern altitude and used to reduce and configure further. Speed ranges around 230-170kt, depending on type.

You want to be fully configured at the end of downwind, which is the:

- "Base Turning Point" - at which you leave downwind track (runway reciprocal) and pattern altitude (fighters still at 1500ft GND) for your continuous 180° descending turn towards short final.

If the break turn was already fun, the base/final turn is no less so because of it's initial high rate of descent.

You aim to intercept the runway centerline on short final and flatten out your quite steep descent to intercept a normal 2,5-3° final glideslope or PAPI/VASI lights.

The base turning point / end of downwind is often determined by a roughly 30° past abeam threshold position (runway beginning in your 4/8 o'clock position).

The goal is to be established on about 3/4 NM final.

The base turn can be delayed by Tower or yourself for sequencing to preceeding landing or departing traffic. If you turn final later, the turn is less fun because it doesn't require the initial high rate of descent.

The beginning of the base turn from downwind to final shall be reported with intentions and a gear-down confirmation. e.g.: "VIPER11, base 31L, gear down, full stop." - or maybe for another round in the pattern: "..., base 08, gear down, touch&go, closed [pattern]."

Some countries, like mine, publish VFR procedure charts for their military airbases in addition to their civilian aerodromes.

If you want to check out German arrival & depature procedures for fighter jets, check this Link.

Since there is no direct download link, you have to select "GEMIL FLIP VAD JET Complete Edition" under "Publication".

Most of the abovementioned standard procedures can be seen below in this YouTube-video of USAF F-16C HUD-cam footage, plus a Simulated-Flame-Out (SOF) pattern with "High & Low Key" position reports.

I think these procedures are a wide-spread western military standard, there might be of course myriads of exceptions & variations due to aircraft performance, local noise abatemant restrictions, geographic considerations, etc.

Check out Switzerland's Meiringen airbase LSMM for example, located in a narrow valley, requiring a pattern altitude of somewhere around 7000ft above field elevation, making for a spectacular final turn dropping down into the valley from the mountain ridges. That pattern is a little wider, of course, but not much...

And don't mistake civilian standards like 1000ft GND, entry via downwind and 90° turns in a rectangular pattern for universal standards valid for jet jockeys as well.

Fighter Ops (oops, rule 1.15...? - err, no!) are faster, tighter and more fun, despite coming from tactical considerations.

That the Navy likes to do it down way lower has to do with no mingling helos and no bad guys outside the shipborn airbase's (carrier's) fence shooting up at low&slow aircraft in the pattern. 500 yards pattern height above ground is safer than 200 regarding small arms fire.

Happy pattern-flying, cheers!

Read better, its where you end up in the groove.

Watch the Wags YT.

Also IRL, also f.i. A.E. W. CASE1 Advanced Topics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiVdwkuCrwg

 

A.E. W. apparently is an actual F18 pilot who flew carriers 16 years ago and flies his procedures from memory, f.i. he doesn’t break ‘astearn’ he breaks ‘when you’re (supposed to) see the light shining through the open below deck hanger doors through and through’ (HINT: DCS .. ?)

 

He breaks DME 1.3 at 600ft, ends up at 370ft on the groove, which would be 12s or so from trapping.

 

Wags does the same thing (actually I see 104th server LSO views F-18's showing up really close aft the stern smack on the groove, which is a telltale, this happens when you break as fast as feasible and trained, and end up low and close).

 

(Edit: which by the way is counter to all those pretty NATOPs diagrams you find here on the forum that show 'on speed' 'level base turns' but apparently this is not what carrier commanders expect their pilots to do)

 

I asked you what you were trying to say because none of it makes sense and literally all of it is incorrect.

You should probably go back and do your homework. Referencing videos done in DCS is not an accurate source. Actual aviators fly the numbers as published in the book, and are exacting to the foot. 800’ break, 600’ pattern, radalt goes off 370’ over the wake, 15-18s groove length. If you’re 370 at the start your either full tall or long in the groove. Wags does a great job with his videos, but he’s not exacting in his procedures (and does get thuroughly debriefed by aviators about it). Go watch Jabbers’ video if you’re going to use a reference. He uses book diagrams and got input from several active navy pilots.

Pilots also break behind the boat too, pretty common for the first guy out of the stack.

If you’re showing up NESA out of the shit hot your technique is bad. If you show up NESA otherwise, your 180 is incorrect. 15-18s.

Not sure what you mean about those level base turns in the pretty natops diagrams, they all show descending turns to the groove off the 180, the Navy doesn’t have a base leg at all.

This stuff has been done for over a hundred years, no need to nuke it by discecting a video done by a non-winged aviator. It’s literally written in black and white.

I asked you what you were trying to say because none of it makes sense and literally all of it is incorrect.

.. This stuff has been done for over a hundred years, ..

wow, you read somewhere the FA-18C is a hundred years old?

That's amazing, well done

no need to nuke it by discecting a video done by a non-winged aviator. It’s literally written in black and white.

And you do that from your couch on a laptop, because you know that's the right thing to do .. ?

You're quite the champ, what a hero.