TPOD: ATRK vs. PTRK

Is the current point track behavior accurate? It doesn't seem logical that point track is always 100% established and the only way you really know if you actually have a point track is to jiggle the slew around to see if it snaps to a target.

In other words, if I attempt point track on a bare patch of ground, shouldn't it fail and revert to area track?

Is the current point track behavior accurate? It doesn't seem logical that point track is always 100% established and the only way you really know if you actually have a point track is to jiggle the slew around to see if it snaps to a target.

 

In other words, if I attempt point track on a bare patch of ground, shouldn't it fail and revert to area track?

Yeah the current point track is just an approximation, based on the fact that the IR render in DCS is subpar.

When using PTRK is it or is it not necessary to designate before weapon release? Using ATRK I always designate before weapon release...is this wrong?

Yes, wrong. Designation doesn't differ whether it is Point Track or Area Track.

Yes, wrong. Designation doesn't differ whether it is Point Track or Area Track.

note sure I understand your response:

So with either I must designate first, release weapon, then undesignate before selecting another tgt?

If I want to designate 2 tgts before release of either weapon how is that done?

Yeah the current point track is just an approximation, based on the fact that the IR render in DCS is subpar.

Right, but it seems like the current tech shouldn't preclude what I said. Examples: ka50 hkval and F14 LANTIRN

When using PTRK is it or is it not necessary to designate before weapon release? Using ATRK I always designate before weapon release...is this wrong?

There are two things here you need to worry about:

The designated target is the point that the auto bombing computer will use to calculate the weapon release point. You should designate the target (TDC Depress) before dropping an LGB, so that the bomb is released on a flight path that puts it as close to the target as possible. If bombing a moving target, designating the target again a few seconds before calculated bomb release can be beneficial. (Note: if using laser Mavericks, target designation isn't necessary, since you don't need it to launch a Maverick)

Once the bomb is off the plane, target designation doesn't matter anymore. The laser will fire in a strait line and always illuminate what's in the middle of the FLIR crosshairs. So long as the bomb was dropped close enough, and you don't make too radical of a change in aiming position, what you see is what you'll hit. Being in area versus point track is irrelevant as far as the bomb is concerned. All that matters is that the laser keeps being pointed at the target, if you can do that in area track that's fine. If a point track keeps the laser locked where you want to hit, that's cool too. Point track is definitively better when attacking a moving target, if you're attacking a stationary target use whatever gets the laser where it needs to be. You can move the laser while the bomb is in flight to refine impact point, this can be particularly necessary when bombing a building in area track, as your perspective on the building will change as you continue to fly and it may move the crosshair off the spot on the building you want to hit. Just keep in mind that the bomb will be "chasing" the laser dot, so every move you make will rob it of energy and it won't be able to make significant corrections, especially late in it's fall path.

note sure I understand your response:

So with either I must designate first, release weapon, then undesignate before selecting another tgt?

If I want to designate 2 tgts before release of either weapon how is that done?

I tend to believe you are talking about releasing multiple weapons to multiple targets in one run in, without shifting the aiming? You can only do that with a GPS based weapon (JDAM, JSOW, SLAM etc.).

When you point your TGP to any point, it is only the GPS weapons that can store their respective target coordinates (received from the TGP and your designation). So when you ripple them to different targets, you can forget them, and don't even have to worry about designation, as you told them earlier, where to go. And, to be able to do this, you need to be able to stay in the release envelope for the last bomb, otherwise it won't be able to steer to their targets.

If you use laser guided weapons, you can't fire the second one before the first one impacted, because LGB is looking for a laser spot on the ground emitted from your TPG. So it's like telling to someone: it's dark, you can't see anything, but hay go to the door I'm illuminating you. If you take off your torch from the door, he wouldn't see where to go. So if you want to launch Buddy #2 to the barn now, you can't, before Buddy #1 touches the door. Then you can shift laser spot to the barn for Buddy #2. If you launch him early without illuminating, he will probably get lost before reaching the barn, and will be too late to steer back on time to hit.

If you want to release multiple dumb bombs to multiple targets, then you either store them one by one as Markpoints or waypoints (A-10C example, sorry) in your system, as dumb bombs have no memory. Then you can try being a pianist after the first release to switch with lightning speed to the next markpoint, designate, and pray that by the time of the next release you turned and stabilized to the new target bearing, and still have some time until the CCRP or Auto point of release in space and time. After the release you can't do anything with them dumb bombs.

Sorry if too tedious...

There are two things here you need to worry about:

 

The designated target is the point that the auto bombing computer will use to calculate the weapon release point. You should designate the target (TDC Depress) before dropping an LGB, so that the bomb is released on a flight path that puts it as close to the target as possible. If bombing a moving target, designating the target again a few seconds before calculated bomb release can be beneficial. (Note: if using laser Mavericks, target designation isn't necessary, since you don't need it to launch a Maverick)

 

Once the bomb is off the plane, target designation doesn't matter anymore. The laser will fire in a strait line and always illuminate what's in the middle of the FLIR crosshairs. So long as the bomb was dropped close enough, and you don't make too radical of a change in aiming position, what you see is what you'll hit. Being in area versus point track is irrelevant as far as the bomb is concerned. All that matters is that the laser keeps being pointed at the target, if you can do that in area track that's fine. If a point track keeps the laser locked where you want to hit, that's cool too. Point track is definitively better when attacking a moving target, if you're attacking a stationary target use whatever gets the laser where it needs to be. You can move the laser while the bomb is in flight to refine impact point, this can be particularly necessary when bombing a building in area track, as your perspective on the building will change as you continue to fly and it may move the crosshair off the spot on the building you want to hit. Just keep in mind that the bomb will be "chasing" the laser dot, so every move you make will rob it of energy and it won't be able to make significant corrections, especially late in it's fall path.

Thank you for that info Bunny Clark!

This will be most helpful when I start training with Laser guided munitions.

Using Tpod, I'm currently training with JSOW and JDAM only and I believe there is a difference when designating a tgt. vs. lasing. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it fire and forget once the tgt has been designated to JSOW and the weapon released? Even though in ATRK as the plane flies it will change the impact point perspective from the plane, it won't for the JSOW enroute...correct?

This will be most helpful when I start training with Laser guided munitions.

Using Tpod, I'm currently training with JSOW and JDAM only and I believe there is a difference when designating a tgt. vs. lasing.

Correct. GPS guided weapons like JDAM and JSOW do not require laser tracking and are fire-and-forget.

When you designate a target using the TDC Depress button all that happens is the Hornet's computer does some math to determine the GPS coordinates of the location you designated, and in TOO mode those will be sent directly to the selected weapon. You can fire the laser as you designate, which will result in more accurate range information and more accurate coordinates (this may not be implemented yet in DCS Hornet), but it is not necessary to fire the laser at all for a GPS weapon.

Tracking mode matters even less for a GPS guided weapon, since the coordinates of the location in the crosshair will be grabbed the moment you hit TDC Depress. Where the pod is pointing after that does not make any difference to the weapon unless you designate again, in which case the coordinates will be overwritten with the new ones. It is not possible to attack a moving target with a GPS weapon, so tracking of moving targets is also irrelevant. The only reason to keep the FLIR on the target through bomb delivery is for BDA.

Correct. GPS guided weapons like JDAM and JSOW do not require laser tracking and are fire-and-forget.

 

When you designate a target using the TDC Depress button all that happens is the Hornet's computer does some math to determine the GPS coordinates of the location you designated, and in TOO mode those will be sent directly to the selected weapon. You can fire the laser as you designate, which will result in more accurate range information and more accurate coordinates (this may not be implemented yet in DCS Hornet), but it is not necessary to fire the laser at all for a GPS weapon.

 

Tracking mode matters even less for a GPS guided weapon, since the coordinates of the location in the crosshair will be grabbed the moment you hit TDC Depress. Where the pod is pointing after that does not make any difference to the weapon unless you designate again, in which case the coordinates will be overwritten with the new ones. It is not possible to attack a moving target with a GPS weapon, so tracking of moving targets is also irrelevant. The only reason to keep the FLIR on the target through bomb delivery is for BDA.

Doesn't PTRK offer that capability?

Thanks for the follow-up

Well, PTRK does indeed lock the TGP to a moving target; however, once released, a GPS guided weapon can no longer communicate with the TGP. Post-release the weapon therefore can only guide to the coordinates downloaded to it at the most recent TGP designation and has no way of knowing, by virtue of a laser for example, where the TGP is pointing.

Be nice if we had GBU54

Well, PTRK does indeed lock the TGP to a moving target; however, once released, a GPS guided weapon can no longer communicate with the TGP. Post-release the weapon therefore can only guide to the coordinates downloaded to it at the most recent TGP designation and has no way of knowing, by virtue of a laser for example, where the TGP is pointing.

Interesting, so what's the purpose of using PTRK...I read that PTRK is for moving tgts and ATRK is for static tgts.

Interesting, so what's the purpose of using PTRK...I read that PTRK is for moving tgts and ATRK is for static tgts.

LMAV's and LGB's used on moving targets.

After more testing with JSOW.

I did move, designate, move, designate, move, designate then when in range, release, release, release with all 3 on target.

If you un-designate between the tgts. you then must move back from boresight.

Interesting, so what's the purpose of using PTRK...I read that PTRK is for moving tgts and ATRK is for static tgts.

PTRK is useful for laser-guided weapons. With the target being followed by the TGP in PTRK, the laser remains focused on the target and the laser-guided weapon can guide to the moving target by virtue of the reflected laser energy. GPS-guided weapons guide to stored GPS coordinates.

From Chuck's Guide p.207:

Press the Sensor Control Switch Towards Selected Display

(Right if our right DDI is selected) to toggle between Point

Track (PTRK, tracks a moving object like a high-contrast

vehicle) and Area Track (ATRK, used for a static target).

So this is incorrect?

From Chuck's Guide p.207:

Press the Sensor Control Switch Towards Selected Display

(Right if our right DDI is selected) to toggle between Point

Track (PTRK, tracks a moving object like a high-contrast

vehicle) and Area Track (ATRK, used for a static target).

 

So this is incorrect?

Yes. In point track, the FLIR will track a moving target. However, when using a GPS guided weapon, that weapon will guide to the location you had designated as the target when the weapon was dropped. Any changes in target location cannot be communicated to the bomb after it has left the plane. With a GPS weapon it doesn't matter than the FLIR can continue to track the target, the weapon won't know it.

That's one of the advantages of laser guided weapons, since they constantly seek the laser spot any target that can be tracked with the FLIR can be hit with a laser guided weapon, even if it's moving. The price you pay for that is needing to track the target with the FLIR from release until impact.

Be nice if we had GBU54

The GBU-54 LJDAM is out of scope for every aircraft currently in DCS.

The GBU-54 LJDAM is out of scope for every aircraft currently in DCS.

I know. Just wishful thinking.

Yes. In point track, the FLIR will track a moving target. However, when using a GPS guided weapon, that weapon will guide to the location you had designated as the target when the weapon was dropped. Any changes in target location cannot be communicated to the bomb after it has left the plane. With a GPS weapon it doesn't matter than the FLIR can continue to track the target, the weapon won't know it.

 

That's one of the advantages of laser guided weapons, since they constantly seek the laser spot any target that can be tracked with the FLIR can be hit with a laser guided weapon, even if it's moving. The price you pay for that is needing to track the target with the FLIR from release until impact.

Thanks for that clarification...So in PTRK the TPOD can track a moving tgt for a JSOW but you would have to wait for the driver to pull over to the road side to pee before releasing the weapon:smilewink:

Thanks for that clarification...So in PTRK the TPOD can track a moving tgt for a JSOW but you would have to wait for the driver to pull over to the road side to pee before releasing the weapon:smilewink:

Exactly. Though, since the JSOW is a standoff weapon with a pretty long glide time, you better be sure it's one hell of a pee. ;)

Nr. 2 even better...

Interesting, so what's the purpose of using PTRK...I read that PTRK is for moving tgts and ATRK is for static tgts.

That's a common understanding but it not exactly correct. There is a lot more to it that.

ATRK is typically used for larger less defined targets like the roof of a building, or a runway or a bridge abutment. However, it can certainly be used very effectively on small discrete targets such as a vehicle.

PTRK is usually only used on small targets that offer very good contrast with sharp edges so that the PTRK tracking gate can "grab on" and hold on to it. If the target is too large or too undefined, the PTRK gate will often move around - latching first onto the turret of a tank or the hot hood of a car or truck. But it can also easily lose the track altogether if the target aspect changes and the PTRK can't see that spot anymore or the contrast changes. PTRK IRL often has a mind of its own - moving around the target when you least want it to.

As a general rule of thumb (ROT) for employing LGBs, For a static target it's usually best to always use an ATRK as its often more stable than PTRK. Even on non-moving vehicles. For movers, if you're simply tracking them and not bombing them yet - PTRK will allow you to do it mostly hands free as it will latch onto the vehicle and stay there (you hope). However, whether to use ATRK or PTRK is often personal preference and is driven by the target features itself.

Moving targets are more complex than just building a PTRK and dropping the LGB. For PWII bombs (GBU-10 and 12), you need to lead them with the crosshair. IRL, if you have a PTRK on the vehicle, the bomb will miss unless it's barely crawling along. Anything over about 10mph and you need to lead the truck/car/tank whatever by some amount for the entire time of flight. So PTRK won't work at all. If its a GBU-24 or GBU-54 (future maybe), then PTRK is the way to go. I haven't played enough with the PWIIs in DCS to see how it replicates hitting movers. It could be that PTRK works fine, but is unrealistic.

Finally, you need to understand that there is a huge difference between LGB and GPS weapon employment, and from your follow on questions - I'm not sure you get that difference. LGB weapons need the laser on the target for at least the last 8-10 sec before impact. Without the laser spot, they will likely miss. However for a GPS weapon (JDAM, JSOW, etc) the laser is not required at all. Hell, the TGP is not even required. You can type in coordinates only in the UFC and let 'er rip. The TGP w/ laser, as others have said, can quickly send those TGT coords to the bomb without you having to fat finger them in. The laser is not required, but using it during the designation gives you much more precise coordinates than without the laser. However, once you release the GPS bombs, they cannot see the laser or targeting pod AT ALL. So what you do with a track after release is totally irrelevant. You can boresight the pod and the bombs won't care.