Windows Mixed Reality Discussion

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

My guess is if you read those agreements on either the headset or Windows you’ll find that not going to be an option. 

It will certainly be interesting to see what happens because HP has not discontinued the Reverb G2, and although it is "Out of Stock" in their online store they still give the impression it will be available for sale after it's back in stock. In the end it's difficult for me to imagine a EULA that would protect HP for sales made after Microsoft officially informed them about dropping WMR.

Personally, I would be surprised if HP isn't already working on alternative software, if only through a third-party.

Just now, Cab said:

Personally, I would be surprised if HP isn't already working on alternative software, if only through a third-party.

That’s the realistic solution. 

14 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

That’s the realistic solution. 

On a positive note, people relying on WMR headsets should be okay until Nov 2025 as long as they don't update to Win11 24H2. It looks like security patches will be supported for 23H2 until then.

See here: Windows 11 Home and Pro - Microsoft Lifecycle | Microsoft Learn

3 hours ago, Cab said:

It will certainly be interesting to see what happens because HP has not discontinued the Reverb G2, and although it is "Out of Stock" in their online store they still give the impression it will be available for sale after it's back in stock. In the end it's difficult for me to imagine a EULA that would protect HP for sales made after Microsoft officially informed them about dropping WMR.

Personally, I would be surprised if HP isn't already working on alternative software, if only through a third-party.

Unfortunately they have discontinued it. They're just trying to clear out stock. The Reverb subreddit is rife with HP employees who used to support Reverb (you can check their posting history) who will quite openly tell you HP has pulled the plug on VR and has zero people and dollars working on it. The chance that they're going to spend money to create new software to supplant a Windows function for a 3.5-year old product they're desperately trying to clear their stock of is nil. And I'm not happy about this; I own two Reverb G2s. It's just the reality. 

13 minutes ago, Gorn557 said:

Unfortunately they have discontinued it. They're just trying to clear out stock. The Reverb subreddit is rife with HP employees who used to support Reverb (you can check their posting history) who will quite openly tell you HP has pulled the plug on VR and has zero people and dollars working on it. The chance that they're going to spend money to create new software to supplant a Windows function for a 3.5-year old product they're desperately trying to clear their stock of is nil. And I'm not happy about this; I own two Reverb G2s. It's just the reality. 

Have they officially announced it being discontinued? I’m not a lawyer but selling new product knowing it’s going to stop working in less than two years seems to me like a form of fraud.

But like I wrote above, it’ll be interesting to see how this plays out. For the record, I own a G2 also.

39 minutes ago, Cab said:

Have they officially announced it being discontinued? I’m not a lawyer but selling new product knowing it’s going to stop working in less than two years seems to me like a form of fraud.

You know the principle here, caveat emptor. At some point everything you buy will stop working. It’s up to the buyer to be savvy enough. 

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You know the principle here, caveat emptor. At some point everything you buy will stop working. It’s up to the buyer to be savvy enough. 

Maybe, maybe not. No one here seems to know the law so time will tell

I asked the question on HP’s Reverb G2 store page (see attached pic)

We’ll see what they answer.

50 minutes ago, Cab said:

Maybe, maybe not. No one here seems to know the law so time will tell

I imagine they have a duty to disclose to buyers that the product or its support has been discontinued though. Although aparently they are no longer selling them. So that explains itself. 

2 hours ago, Cab said:

Have they officially announced it being discontinued? I’m not a lawyer but selling new product knowing it’s going to stop working in less than two years seems to me like a form of fraud.

But like I wrote above, it’ll be interesting to see how this plays out. For the record, I own a G2 also.

There's no legal requirement that you have to guarantee that another company (Microsoft) will continue to make their software compatible with your hardware indefinitely. What would be a reasonable time frame for such a guarantee? A year? Two years? Five? Ten? Does Microsoft pay for it or HP? It would get very messy very quickly. 

As pointed out above, in US law at least, caveat emptor almost always rules. If the hardware works within the warranty period (and in this context, "works" basically means "it powers on", not that it's compatible with X or Y version of Windows), then HP is free of liability. 

Do I like this? No, of course not, I absolutely hate it- but legally speaking HP has no obligations and will do nothing. 

54 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I imagine they have a duty to disclose to buyers that the product or its support has been discontinued though. Although aparently they are no longer selling them. So that explains itself. 

That remains to be seen. The website only says "out of stock"

19 minutes ago, Gorn557 said:

There's no legal requirement that you have to guarantee that another company (Microsoft) will continue to make their software compatible with your hardware indefinitely. What would be a reasonable time frame for such a guarantee? A year? Two years? Five? Ten? Does Microsoft pay for it or HP? It would get very messy very quickly. 

As pointed out above, in US law at least, caveat emptor almost always rules. If the hardware works within the warranty period (and in this context, "works" basically means "it powers on", not that it's compatible with X or Y version of Windows), then HP is free of liability. 

 

Do I like this? No, of course not, I absolutely hate it- but legally speaking HP has no obligations and will do nothing. 

 

Your first point makes sense for headsets sold prior to the announcement by Microsoft. After that it's difficult for me to believe they can continue selling the product without informing the purchaser. But again, as I said, I have no idea what the law actually says.

No one here has claimed to actually know the applicable laws for this situation. I am happy to be shown I'm wrong if that's not the case.

My G2 is having problem in these days: it does not recognize my USB 3.0 anymore, maybe a faulty cable. I'm doubtful wether to find a new cable (100 €) for just a few months or do the big step and buy a quest 3...

8 hours ago, nessuno0505 said:

My G2 is having problem in these days: it does not recognize my USB 3.0 anymore, maybe a faulty cable. I'm doubtful wether to find a new cable (100 €) for just a few months or do the big step and buy a quest 3...

Had the same a few weeks ago. HP logo on the headset stayed dark and it was not recognized. Had bought an 3 years extended warranty at the shop and got a new cable.

With the new cable it works flawless again. @nessuno0505 so there is a good chance your cable is also defective. But 80 € for a cable is massive if you have to buy it now, especially when you know that the headset is end of life.......

16 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

My guess is if you read those agreements on either the headset or Windows you’ll find that not going to be an option. 

It's absolutely going to be an option. Those "agreements" don't mean jack. EULAs have frequently been ruled as unenforceable, and they're not allowed to make you sign off your rights granted to you by law. In other words, if an EULA tells you a lawsuit not an option, you can sue for that.  Way too many people are cowed into thinking they signed away their rights by corporate propaganda, just saying "we're not responsible for our software causing you to lose hundreds of dollars" doesn't means they can't be sued if that happens.

At least, that's the way things are in Europe. If US judges bend over backwards to say companies are above the law, you're kind of screwed. Then again, they didn't like McDonalds' using shady delaying tactics to deny paying one woman for treatment, and slapped them with a humongous fine. Mind you, that wasn't a class action, that was a single person who simply went all the way to court. So even in the US, you can win if you're dogged enough and actually go to court, as opposed to being intimidated by their army of lawyers.

In other words, know your rights and enforce them. No matter how expensive a lawyer the have, or how big a legal team they turn out, if the law says you're in the right, then there's nothing they can do about it. Companies rely on arbitration, settling out of court and other tricks so that the case doesn't go before a judge. Because the moment it does, it's out of their hands, and they can only watch as the judge hands the plaintiff a good chunk of their revenue. Provided you live in a country where the justice system is worth a damn, and have enough money and patience to weather their delaying tactics (which judges often aren't fond of, either), it is quite possible to win.

10 hours ago, nessuno0505 said:

My G2 is having problem in these days: it does not recognize my USB 3.0 anymore, maybe a faulty cable. I'm doubtful wether to find a new cable (100 €) for just a few months or do the big step and buy a quest 3...

Cable problems are a well known issue with the Reverb. I haven't had any (besides a well known problem with the USB controller, solved by buying a USB3.0 expansion card), but quite a few other people did.

And yes, replacement cables are ridiculously expensive.

19 hours ago, Gorn557 said:

Unfortunately they have discontinued it. They're just trying to clear out stock. The Reverb subreddit is rife with HP employees who used to support Reverb (you can check their posting history) who will quite openly tell you HP has pulled the plug on VR and has zero people and dollars working on it. The chance that they're going to spend money to create new software to supplant a Windows function for a 3.5-year old product they're desperately trying to clear their stock of is nil. And I'm not happy about this; I own two Reverb G2s. It's just the reality. 

Right.

I recall getting a "notification" email from HP that not only were they shelving the G2 but, were getting out of the VR space entirely.

Perhaps in response to where they knew MS was headed with WMR.

1 hour ago, Sr. said:

Right.

 

I recall getting a "notification" email from HP that not only were they shelving the G2 but, were getting out of the VR space entirely.

Perhaps in response to where they knew MS was headed with WMR.

Can you share that email? I don’t see where I received anything like that. 

9 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It's absolutely going to be an option.

Likely not. You’d have to show actual damages, a commercial user of WMR might have more grounds to sue over but not casual users. They don’t have a legal obligation to maintain every feature of Windows. I’m sure that’s covered in the EULA. And they provided reasonable notice of the deprecation.
Microsoft isn’t going to refund you for something you bought from another company and HP is simply limited to the 1 year warranty for the headset. My 2011 HP printer no longer works with Windows 11 but I can’t sue them for that. Nothing in consumer electronics works forever. 

18 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Microsoft isn’t going to refund you for something you bought from another company and HP is simply limited to the 1 year warranty for the headset. 

No, but HP, or the appropriate store, might refund you something that was sold as working and turned out to be unsupported and not working with Windows 11, an information that should have been on the store's page (because they claim it works with Win11). A 2011 HP printer was sold as working with Windows 7 (11 not being on the radar then), and it was working for the expected lifetime of the product. If you install Windows 7, it'll work. A Reverb G2 still under warranty, bricked by a Windows update that was already announced when the sale was made, would absolutely qualify for a warranty refund, unless the customer was explicitly informed of the update before making a purchase and decided to do so anyway. At least, in the European country it probably would.

Microsoft is simply the wrong target for a suit, because they didn't sell you anything VR-related, unless WMR was a selling point of Windows 11, which it wasn't. You wouldn't sue them unless you were making WMR headsets and they failed to inform you of the change. Again, it seems that you don't fully understand your rights (or you live somewhere where you don't have any) and how to enforce them. Reverb G2 is a HP product, so it's HP's responsibility to make it work for as long as they're supposed to be working.

3 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

A Reverb G2 still under warranty

Key point. And that warranty is 1 year. Notice they stopped selling them way ahead of the time WMR will be gone. 

For those of you hoping for an open source solution or replacement to WMR, it sounds like that is unlikely to happen.  For reference, see the 2 posts below by mbucchia on the subject...

https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/microsoft-is-discontinuing-windows-mixed-reality-wmr/622334/191

https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/microsoft-is-discontinuing-windows-mixed-reality-wmr/622334/185

I’m getting a bit confused at all the information I’m reading online regarding windows and WMR deprecation, and I’m unclear what the situation is for a fresh installation of Win 11 Home.

Let’s suppose I were to buy a pre-built computer right now with the latest win11 home OS, would WMR come preinstalled?   If not, is it currently possible to install WMR on the current version of win11?  

If I can get WMR to work with a newly installed version of Win11, then I’m planning to shut off updates to Win11 so I can keep using my G2 until better options arrive on the market.   But if Microsoft wont allow wmr to be installed on new win11 installations, then I’m screwed.   I really don’t  want to spend for a new PC and a new (more expensive and less ideal) VR headset at the same time.

My understanding is that WMR will remain baked into any new Windows 11 installation until the feature update 24H2 is released towards the end of this year. 
 

That's very mean if they explicitly remove WMR from Windows. They could leave it as it is, just without any more updates, like FFB for example.

I think there will be a work around in the end.