F-16 in comparison with other jets

Just to give people an idea of what to expect:

Planning on adding more aircraft pr. request, next is most likely some of the Russian 3rd & 4th gen jets.

Note: All the information is pulled directly from original performance manuals for each respective aircraft, so the data should be spot on. But feel free to notify me should you find a discrepancy.

Just for my own curiosity I'd be interested to add a MiG19 to that just to see.

Or SU-27.

What about the famous F-18?

would it be possible to get a graph showing the intersect between Max sustained turnrate and optimal turn radius?

there is no simple single sustained turn rate to determine what you can win a turn fight against because the speeds reduce duing manuvers due to bleeding of energy.

the Hornet at mach 0.86 is going to be out turned by the viper at such speeds., but mach 0.86 is 1061 KM/H. No one will stay such speeds during dogfights

we all know the Hornet will eventually start winning the fight in a sustained turn the slower the speed drops during the sustained turns due to its high nose point authority, and its ability to maintain it.

there is no simple single sustained turn rate to determine what you can win a turn fight against because the speeds reduce duing manuvers due to bleeding of energy.

 

the Hornet at mach 0.86 is going to be out turned by the viper at such speeds., but mach 0.86 is 1061 KM/H. No one will stay such speeds during dogfights

 

we all know the Hornet will eventually start winning the fight in a sustained turn the slower the speed drops during the sustained turns due to its high nose point authority, and its ability to maintain it.

Sure YMMV, but the nonetheless it's interesting to see some sort of baseline measure to compare. At least it gives the potential. The rest is up to you pilot! :) (thanks OP, very interesting)

Note: All the information is pulled directly from original performance manuals for each respective aircraft, so the data should be spot on. But feel free to notify me should you find a discrepancy.

Uh...if all the information is pulled directly from original performance manuals for each respective aircraft, It should be easy to run the F-14 number at .85 MACH like the rest of the examples.

You know..apples to apples...

we all know the Hornet will eventually start winning the fight in a sustained turn the slower the speed drops during the sustained turns due to its high nose point authority, and its ability to maintain it.

The Viper has better acceleration and better sustained turn rate. If the Viper pilot plays it right, he can enter and leave as he pleases.

Uh...if all the information is pulled directly from original performance manuals for each respective aircraft, It should be easy to run the F-14 number at .85 MACH like the rest of the examples.

 

You know..apples to apples...

An assumption on my part, but I wouldn't be surprised if those speeds are the optimum for each aircraft at the merge. In any case optimum speeds will be different, so it doesn't make sense to have them fly at the same speed - fly to your strengths.

Pls give us the graphs with all jets

Does this not apply anymore?

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The Viper has better acceleration and better sustained turn rate. If the Viper pilot plays it right, he can enter and leave as he pleases.

thats not the point.......

now your getting into T/W ratios and not pure rate of turn charts. Besides you only need enough T/W. Modern missiles are quite an equalizer in compensating for inferior performance . its enough there is a window of opportunity to fire an aim9, or Aim120 in ACM, as an F16 is attempting to pull away forcing him to go evasive and bleed that precious speed that was attempted to be built up.

What about the famous F-18?

Oh I'd love to do that one, but unfortunately it's one of the few modern jets I don't have detailed performance charts for.

Uh...if all the information is pulled directly from original performance manuals for each respective aircraft, It should be easy to run the F-14 number at .85 MACH like the rest of the examples.

 

You know..apples to apples...

That wouldn't really make any sense considering you should be striving to hit the speed where your maximum sustained turn rate is at, which just happens to be at a much lower speed for the F-14 (and also F/A-18 based on DCS's FM), and hence their radius is smaller at their max sustainable rate - however unless their rate atleast somewhat matches that of the opponent then they are at high risk of being dragged into a two circle fight that they will eventually lose.

Hence comparing the max sustainable turn performance is the most apples to apples comparison you're going to get when it comes to a traditional circles fight.

there is no simple single sustained turn rate to determine what you can win a turn fight against because the speeds reduce duing manuvers due to bleeding of energy.

 

the Hornet at mach 0.86 is going to be out turned by the viper at such speeds., but mach 0.86 is 1061 KM/H. No one will stay such speeds during dogfights

 

we all know the Hornet will eventually start winning the fight in a sustained turn the slower the speed drops during the sustained turns due to its high nose point authority, and its ability to maintain it.

Except these are the sustainable turn rates, as in you're not supposed to drop any speed ;)

In other words the Viper pilot's priority should be to force a two circle fight, because if he can do that then he will mostly have the advantage as his higher sustained turn rate will eventually have him gain angles on the hornet.

The Hornet pilot's best bet is to utilize the high nose pointing ability in the beginning of the fight to get a snap shot on the Viper. If that doesn't succeed he's generally in trouble, and should then next be trying to force an overshoot and/or flat scissors.

Except these are the sustainable turn rates, as in you're not supposed to drop any speed ;)

 

In other words the Viper pilot's priority should be to force a two circle fight, because if he can do that then he will mostly have the advantage as his higher sustained turn rate will eventually have him gain angles on the hornet.

 

The Hornet pilot's best bet is to utilize the high nose pointing ability in the beginning of the fight to get a snap shot on the Viper. If that doesn't succeed he's generally in trouble, and should then next be trying to force an overshoot and/or flat scissors.

your not pulling alot of G' nor much AOA s if you going to sustain such speeds. Quite a wide turn to not loose energy. Reality of the fact is in close in ACM, you will always end up bleeding speed. Its just a matter of how much, and how fast you can regain it after you loose it.

And yes the Viper is better at sustained turns, but only at higher end of the speed spectrum like the one you provided.

In comparison the Hornet has a better sustained turn rate, just not at those speeds you compare in the charts. IF a Hornet driver can force an aircraft like the F16 to 350 knots to as low as 170, that High nose point authority can be sustained better and thus allow a tighter turn radius in a sustained turn fight.

Of course a smart viper driver isn't going to want to bleed his speed so much against a Hornet. But that's just a matter of knowing both sides strengths and weaknesses, and applying the right tactics to the particular aircraft.

your not pulling alot of G' nor much AOA s if you going to sustain such speeds. Quite a wide turn to not loose energy.

Well first of all G's are the result of rate vs speed, i.e. the higher the speed you're pulling a certain rate the higher the amount of G's you're also pulling and vice versa.

And yes the Viper is better as sustained speeds, but only at higher end of the speed spectrum like the one you provided.

It's true that the speed at which the Hornet's achieves its highest sustainable rate is lower, which all else being equal is a good thing (just look at the F-14 on those plots), as it provides an advantage in a one circle fight. But unless your highest sustainable rate is also close to that of your opponent then you will actually end up losing a sustained turn fight, esp. if it's a two circle fight.

In comparison the Hornet has a better sustained turn rate, just not at those speeds you compare in the charts.

That I actually doubt as the Viper has the highest STR I've seen amongst 4th gen jets so far.

It's in instantanuous rate that the Hornet will have the main advantage, and that at low speed, but the problem with pulling maximum ITR is that you're sacrificing speed to achieve it, hence you gotta make what'ever deflection shot you're trying to make count or you've just put yourself in a very disadvantageous position.

IF a Hornet driver can force an aircraft like the F16 to 350 knots to as low as 170, that High nose point authority can be sustained better and thus allow a tighter turn radius in a sustained turn fight.

And why would the Viper pilot ever agree to this when he can more than likely sustain a higher rate?

Sure radius is a very important measure when judging dogfighting ability but, it's only half the story, just as important (if not slightly more so) is the rate of turn, i.e. how fast you're actually swinging your a/c around.

To illustrate the importance of rate:

That wouldn't really make any sense considering you should be striving to hit the speed where your maximum sustained turn rate is at, which just happens to be at a much lower speed for the F-14 (and also F/A-18 based on DCS's FM), and hence their radius is smaller at their max sustainable rate - however unless their rate atleast somewhat matches that of the opponent then they are at high risk of being dragged into a two circle fight that they will eventually lose.

 

Hence comparing the max sustainable turn performance is the most apples to apples comparison you're going to get when it comes to a traditional circles fight.

Max sustainable turn performance at what altitude? What Gross Weight? At what speed?

If this is just about numbers I can show you an entire table of F-16 Data that says your numbers are wrong.

Sorry

Maybe I am waaaayyyyyy ooooooffff topic but,,,

graphs and charts don't amount to much due to a factor which can neither be graphed nor calculated, The Human factor.

Data is a nice reference when used as that, reference.

Guess JF-17 chart data isn’t possible to obtain

Max sustainable turn performance at what altitude? What Gross Weight? At what speed?

Please be so kind as to atleast actually read the info provided on the plot = 10,000 ft, radius & speed at max sustainable rate.

Weight & load is typical "fighter" load out of 6-8x missiles, no external tanks, 50% fuel.

For the F-16 that is 4x AIM-120's + 2x AIM-9's, 50% fuel, no externals, drag index 50.

For the F-14 that is 4x AIM-7's + 4x AIM-9's, 50% fuel, no externals.

For the F-15 that is 4x AIM-120's + 4x AIM-9's, 50% fuel, no externals.

For the F-4 that is 4x AIM-7's + 4x AIM-9's, 50% fuel, no externals.

If this is just about numbers I can show you an entire table of F-16 Data that says your numbers are wrong.

 

Sorry

Well no, actually you can't :)

Guess JF-17 chart data isn’t possible to obtain

I'm guessing that would be hard yes, but I haven't tried so I can't say.

The plot is not meant to be an eightball that can predict every possible outcome of a fight, it's meant to give people a clearer picture of the sustained maneuvering capabilities of their aircraft during ACM, which is important in any fight that lasts longer than the first 180 deg.

Updated the illustration with min sustained radius added, and here you can really see why the F-16 is a dangerous adversary in a dogfight as it actually manages to sustain a tighter min radius @ 10 kft than even the F-14.

That said if the F-14 pilot keeps to his best maneuvering speed @ 0.61 M he will outrate an F-16 sticking to a min radius turn after the first ~15 sec. This illustrates well why you generally want to stick to your best maneuvering speed, i.e. where your highest sustained rate is achieved.

Note: At SL things change a little bit, here the F-14 manages a min radius about 30 ft smaller than the F-16, but again the F-16's rate is slightly faster.