Extended Warthog Stick with industrial spring for more feedback

Hello folks,

this might be an idea for any of you who extended the Warthog/Cougar stick and miss the feedback from the springs.

I bought an industrial type spring 7 cm diameter and 13 cm high.

With some time and the correct screws and shims it can be mounted directly to the base instead of the aluminium cover ring.

More and more it looks like a pit :D

The spring is from www.febrotec.de

I chose this one:

http://www.febrotec.de/content.php?lang=en&seite=shop/produkte.php&hauptrubrik=2&details=6498

This one gives a feedback power similar to a Saitek X-52

EDIT: Link to post with details on the build

Why didnt you just take the base with the hall sensoric, and extended it under it? Do you want that extra leverage?

Why didnt you just take the base with the hall sensoric, and extended it under it? Do you want that extra leverage?

The whole thing of the extension is mostly about having a longer travel for the stick, which enhances control over the plane dramatically.

It is now possible to give tiny and precise inputs. That's why you use a rod and a converted PS2 extension cable to extend the stick, rather than mounting it on a column. :joystick:

That precision comes with a degrading power of the springs (actually at that length it is completely diminished and you may put the stick in any direction and leave it there :music_whistling:)

The spring adds the necessary feedback to center the stick.

The whole thing of the extension is mostly about having a longer travel for the stick, which enhances control over the plane dramatically.

 

It is now possible to give tiny and precise inputs. That's why you use a rod and a converted PS2 extension cable to extend the stick, rather than mounting it on a column. :joystick:

 

That precision comes with a degrading power of the springs (actually at that length it is completely diminished and you may put the stick in any direction and leave it there :music_whistling:)

 

The spring adds the necessary feedback to center the stick.

Hmmm... I just ask myself, when you compare planes that are fly by wire, you do have the same problem with the precision?

There are plenty of planes that are fly by wire and have sticks or yokes... and most use spring feedback to give the pilot some feel.

There are plenty of planes that are fly by wire and have sticks or yokes... and most use spring feedback to give the pilot some feel.

But I mean if they have that precision problem, because you have a bigger lever in non fly by wire planes then lets say with the stick of the f16

But I mean if they have that precision problem, because you have a bigger lever in non fly by wire planes then lets say with the stick of the f16

If I understood "fly-by-wire" correctly the major improvement is, that the stick, pedals and throttle give signals to a computer system that does the actual flying, so that in general the pilot may twist the stick to the left and applying full left rudder which normally would cause stall on the left wing and get you spinning - now the "fly-by-wire" system prevents this by giving the maximum save rudder input without stalling. (You can override this to willingly cause a maximum G-Turn or the like, though).

In a standard aircraft like the A-10 the input from the stick and pedal is directly translated into control pane movement. So to say a little jerking on the stick at 145 knots has a totally different impact than at 350 knots - what you do is what you get ;)

If you look into the A-10 cockpit you see it has the old weirdo stick from the 70ies and compared to the actual Warthog HOTAS it has a much longer way of travel with more inches per degree on the axis...

And if you try Air-to-air Refueling with the standard stick and the smallest movement make you fail (...and your trigger finger itching :music_whistling:), you get very fond of this extension stuff.

In general it is more realistic, but nonetheless a personal occupation. Some people love it others don't, depends on your preference alone.

I can say I love it and after I have some spring centering the stick again it is a great feeling and my flying improved... not that I can manage A-A-Refueling now, but I'm getting closer to the point where the plane does what I want 99% of the time :joystick:

What are the rivets at the base of the hog sensor are the neccersary to keep the spring in place? It kind of looks like you have two separeate extensions joined in the middle is that the case? its a neat idea, but Im interested in what youve added to the original set up?

What are the rivets at the base of the hog sensor are the neccersary to keep the spring in place? It kind of looks like you have two separeate extensions joined in the middle is that the case? its a neat idea, but Im interested in what youve added to the original set up?

Hi Shu,

for the general extension based on the "Gardena hose-repair kit" I used two Gardena Kits for the connection I used an aluminium pipe 20mm wide that fits neatly on the Gardena stuff.

First problem was to connect the pipe to the socket since it is screwed onto the socket you need a 36M type nut. The one I got on an E-Bay Store is from hydraulics used on tractors and the like. It is massive!

The second kits interior (the plastic nuts are useless) I had to cut and tweak to have a plate with the connector to stick onto the pipe and secure it with the nut on the socket.

Don't forget the adapted PS2 cabling (look into Metalnwoods Extender Thread).

To attach the spring you need:

7-8 Screws Metric 3 x 16 (Take one from the aluminium ring to the store and check!)

7-8 Shims 4.3mm hole 20mm wide

The ominous spring or a tougher one, if you like. IMPORTANT the spring must have an inside width of at least 62mm to fit the nut, better 65. Outside width must not exceed 70mm, otherwise you can't attach the screws.

You need to build a centering plate (the black plate on top of the spring).

I did this from rigid PVC hobby materials 4mm thick (left over from the UFC).

This stuff can be cut with a normal hobby knife. First make a disc fitting inside the spring, as exactly as possible. Second make one that is about 1-2mm wider than the spring (goes on top to keep the spring in place.

then a third one that fits inside but covers the spring edge (think of the three discs as a Hamburger where the spring is holding tightly around the meat :D). Do not glue them yet!!!

Now you have to cut a 20mm hole in the middle of each disc that fits to the aluminium pipe of the extension. :thumbup:

Now you have a PVC disc set of 12mm that you put on the pipe glue together encasing the spring and can be moved up and down the pipe.

Remove the aluminium ring on the base of the Warthog socket.

Screw the extension onto the socket (connect the PS2 plugs!), pull down the spring until it rests on the socket.

So far so good, but the spring will slide around when moving the stick.

Now put the 8 screws and the shims into the socket and fix the spring with them (you will not be able to put the shim in place where the spring starts winding up, I used only the screw there).

Now it should stay in place! :smartass:

The hose clip on top of the PVC disc is not necessary I plan to use it to attach some cover, perhaps a gear stick cover from a car or the like.

It is a bit amateur build, but I don't have access to a garage or sophisticated equipment so this proves what a dremel and some PVC glue can do :D

Ah ok, makes a lot more sense from this. I wish I could extend my X-52 this easily, then I would have no excuses for my poor AAR attempts :)

Ah ok, makes a lot more sense from this. I wish I could extend my X-52 this easily, then I would have no excuses for my poor AAR attempts :)

Oh, there are a lot of excuses for bad AAR, from sun-spots or fluctuations in the magnetic field of the earth to damn wind or my favorite: The controller on the Tanker sucks and is incompetent :megalol:

That is an awesome extension! That has to be the ultimate in precision control but I wonder how durable or practical it will be for very fast movement? I think that is the main tradeoff when extending that much; can you make quick enough movements when flying a WWII aircraft like an F-190 in IL-2. That aircraft can require some very fast full-deflection moves.

That is an awesome extension! That has to be the ultimate in precision control but I wonder how durable or practical it will be for very fast movement? I think that is the main trade off when extending that much; can you make quick enough movements when flying a WWII aircraft like an F-190 in IL-2. That aircraft can require some very fast full-deflection moves.

I guess not as quick as with a X-52, but quick enough. It is something you need to get used to. You steer with the arm not the wrist anymore ;)

But as I said before: look into the cockpit of a none fly-by-wire aircraft, you will find a similar "flightstick" and we have the advantage of no G-forces in the sim.

I did not try it in IL-2, yet, but for DCS Blackshark it is good, as well.

For fine tuning you can tweak the axis I guess, but I doubt this will be necessary.

The A-10C is quite maneuverable as well and with the extension I find myself able to instinctively control it. No more rolls turning into unwanted spins if you know what I mean.

It is something you have to try. As I said it is much of a personal preference.

The X-52 I owned before was absolutely brilliant when it came to spring force and axis. For me it is like reverting back to that feeling plus a more precise control when necessary.

Nice Work!

Nice job. Have to wonder though what the long term affect on your stick will be as a result. You now have added tension and force to the plastic ball joint & internal mechanisms that were not previously there. Not saying it will by the way, just wondering.

I understand the concept of more precision over the whole range of the stick but unless you intend doing slow speed formation aerobatics for most people I would say it isnt necessary. I manage to AAR & formate with no problems with only minor adjustments to the pitch curves in the DCS GUI Menu. I know this adjustment increases the reponsiveness of the stick at the other extreme (i.e. max pitch) but ask yourself how often do you pull (or push) full back on your stick. Very slow speed at the top of a vertical manoevre maybe where increased responsiveness due to curves is negligible.

By the way, I would be tempted to reduce the size of your stick by half. Its way longer than any stick in any jet I've seen. Whats the distance between full forward & back, measured at the top of the stick? Maybe giving up responce time for precision ?

Nice job. Have to wonder though what the long term affect on your stick will be as a result. You now have added tension and force to the plastic ball joint & internal mechanisms that were not previously there. Not saying it will by the way, just wondering.

 

I understand the concept of more precision over the whole range of the stick but unless you intend doing slow speed formation aerobatics for most people I would say it isnt necessary. I manage to AAR & formate with no problems with only minor adjustments to the pitch curves in the DCS GUI Menu. I know this adjustment increases the reponsiveness of the stick at the other extreme (i.e. max pitch) but ask yourself how often do you pull (or push) full back on your stick. Very slow speed at the top of a vertical manoevre maybe where increased responsiveness due to curves is negligible.

 

By the way, I would be tempted to reduce the size of your stick by half. Its way longer than any stick in any jet I've seen. Whats the distance between full forward & back, measured at the top of the stick? Maybe giving up responce time for precision ?

Response times are pretty OK for me. As you said you seldom wish to pull or push the stick to the full extent.

Yet the precisison is good. You have to get used to steer with the arm not the wrist, like coming from table tennis to tennis, though.

The good thing about the "spring enhancement" is, You actually lessen the force on the mechanics and the friction to the ball.

It pulls the stick a bit if you press the spring about 5-10 mm down and fix it the stick. :thumbup:

The shearing force to the ball joint might be an issue, but I tend not to pull so hard (usually these full deflection moves ended in crash or spin anyway...)

And finally, the killer argument for me was: It is like the real thing!

Center stick with about 45 cm rod... only do not have the curved design :music_whistling:

And finally, the killer argument for me was: It is like the real thing!

 

Center stick with about 45 cm rod... only do not have the curved design :music_whistling:

45 cm rod (1.5 ft) plus the length of the stick and the base assembly. Nah, thats much longer than any fighter jet, in a WW2 bomber/fighter with mechanical flight controls maybe but not in an aircraft with powered flight controls.

F15

F18

F-4

F-20

Maybe the spitfire control column though, but even then they split the pitch & roll lengths to increase roll responce to input.

But hey, you like it and thats all that matters at the end of the day.

45 cm rod (1.5 ft) plus the length of the stick and the base assembly. Nah, thats much longer than any fighter jet, in a WW2 bomber/fighter with mechanical flight controls maybe but not in an aircraft with powered flight controls.

No offense, but look at the photos. Two times the height of the Flightsticks handle... I wanted to put in the curve in the first place, but it may put to much force off center.

But I agree, most important is the personal preference. Hey, a lot of people like the X-52 for a reason, others like the fighter jet armchair-setup :thumbup:

What really counts is if you can handle the Hog with it :joystick:

Longer stick will be better for prop sims too, even if you cant hit full deflection as fast, that's a defensive move anyway.

The important thing is the increased precision which = better gunnery aim. This will more than offset any issue with reaction time from center to full extent. Plus the ability to fly without using any curves is excellent.

I've got my extension ready to build now, not sure if I will go for the spring though I'll have to see how much tension is lost.

I'm actually looking forward to less tension though, long sessions with the warthog has my arm a little sore due to the prop sims I fly that need forward stick for level flight.

Hmmn yep looks like you could be right there Shagrat.

The only thing is you might find the travel (full left to full right + fwd to back) may well be a lot less in aircraft than you have with extended WH. The last picture might show full right aileron. Difficult to know for sure. Could always mimc this with DCS curves though I suppose.

:doh:

My Landrover cab is cleaner than that:P

Hmmn yep looks like you could be right there Shagrat.

 

The only thing is you might find the travel (full left to full right + fwd to back) may well be a lot less in aircraft than you have with extended WH. The last picture might show full right aileron. Difficult to know for sure. Could always mimc this with DCS curves though I suppose.

I've measured the full deflection: about 20cm from full left to full right at the top of the stick.

It still feels very responsive. I tested a bit with IL-2 and with the BF-109 and Spitfire it is, well: Wow! I really don't see any major drawback against a standard setup apart from the luxury to rest your arm on the chairs armrest :D

If you adapted to moving your forearm rather then only your wrist it is brilliant. :thumbup:

My Landrover cab is cleaner than that:P

Yeah, I know need to tidy up and vacuum the place... oh, wait you meant the Hog-Cockpit photograph :music_whistling:

Guess they are in the middle of an overhaul and upgrading there...

Another extension

This is my extension, similar to what others have posted, like here.

I agree to some extent with shagrat, but I do think this extension is too long (but if it suits him..), but as he says you cannot go wrong with a full deflection joystick.

I simply had around 11inch extension using 16mm copper pipe, 22mm to 16mm reducers on either side and screwed them in place to the joystick and base with Gardena 39035 5/8-Inch Metal Garden Hose Connector from Amazon US (only a fiver over there rather than £25 over here!!!), a 50cm ps2 cable to join (pain in the arse to get in the pipe mind you), then screw mounted the bottom part with the hall sensors in to £2 plastic flower holder then glued that to the solid metal Warthog baseplate. You can then just glue it in place if you want with a 15 degree left tilt to make it more ergonomic. When I get the time I'll prob cover the copper pipe with foam insulation and put black tape on it to make it look a little more authentic.

All in all it cost - £8 for the copper pipe, £7 for the 2 pipe reducers, £12 inc delivery for the Gardena hose bits.

Performance wise, as the extension isn't too long (I guessed at the length on the real A-10C - about twice the length of the joystick handle) the spring holds well so no extra spring was required. the difference though as shagrat says is really amazing. I have flown light aircraft when I was having lessons with a full deflection stick rather than a yoke and the realism with arm movements on the stick is just like that so I assume it would feel somewhat similar in the A-10C. I do find though that I'll prob need to adjust the axis curves a little as it takes almost full left, right deflection to do a barrell roll.

Conclusion - everyone should do this, it's a piece of cake, in fact since Thrustmaster designed it, they should really have thought about adding and extension with their high price stick for that extra realism.

Here's my pics.