Spitfire first take-off; first "landing" observations

Rudder "dancing" on landing:

 

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675041838_Spitfire_air-base_fighter-aircraft_single-radiator

Nice. Tiny touches of rudder after touchdown, increasing as it slows. When she's slowing right down it's much rudder and dabs of brake. Not too much mind. <<< expert :megalol: I've swerved down the runway to a halt several times now!

Had some fun with her last night...

Taxi

I've noticed if you keep the taxi speed down, if you need to make slight adjustments to keep in a straight line you can goose the throttle to put some additional prop wash against the rudder to make the corrections. Just be careful to not do it too often or goose too much throttle or you will increase taxi speed which can be a bad thing.

After a couple hours setting up my switch panels and flight controls and writing up a checklist and memorizing the cockpit layout, I did a whole day of startup taxi and shutdown. I got pretty comfortable with the ground handling..

Take off tip...

Put a boat load of nose down trim before the takeoff run.. There is a little dot on the elevator trim wheel I put in nose down trim until the dot is at the 4 o'clock postion on the trim wheel, I put in right rudder trim which turns the rudder trim tab 45 degress to the right.

I advance the throttle slowly to 6 boost and keep the stick centered. I'm dancing slightly on the rudder but not too much and use no back pressure. The plane flies off nicely.

Sometimes a little right aileron to counter torque helps on the first few seconds of roll ,,,but not all the time. . Once you have good airflow all the controls respond nicely for takeoff control.

Landing is pretty straight forward. I'm at 150 in the pattern, 130 turning from downwind to base and 110 on final.. Throttle back and hit the threshold at 100,, back pressure on the stick and touch down at 90-95,, if I land a liitle hard and bounce I power up and go around,, when I do manage to slide it in as kiss the runway gently there is almost no tendency for the airplane to ground loop. After I'm down its full back on the stick to keep the tail planted (the airflow gives me down force on the tail to help with keeping the plane straight) and as the aircraft slows down (without braking) I need to use more brake/rudder but since the speed is down it is not as dramatic.

So far 25 take-off and landings without bending the plane.

I tried to make videos but since replays still don't work correctly..... I can't (are we going to fix that?)

Nice video thank yoyo

Ok you made that look simple....and easy feel simple:huh:lol but that's an excellent tutorial the rudder dancing is great, can I ask if you have made any changes to stick settings?

You defiantly earn a :smartass:...I'm encouraged to go bend more metal . Merry Christmas

I'm using a Warthog setup. I've used the "Axis Tune" to set all my controls the same way. For me this setup allows me fine control for gentle corrections but also gives me full control deflection when I need it with reasonable response time. It helps me to not over control and develop PIO (pilot induced oscillation).

HI YOYO and 4H_Ccrashh, OK I finally managed it thanks, not the worlds prettiest take off, lots of PIO and using the short warthog stick, have made similar adjustments as 4H_CcrashH .

Another discovery on this link is the 'cheat' 100% down to 0. Then I thought, what about the trouble I have with the 190, it's a take off disaster, must be on 0 cheating.....its on 100% LOL. So I'm really that rubbish. Now having done the Spit, I'm going to annoy the locals with lots of attempts to conquer those two death traps -Merry Christmas

Spitfire landing. At last I'm walking away from them.

This is the only module I wished I had a set of pedals for the intensive rudder work needed for the landing of the Spitfire and I'm only just starting to get the hang, after many attempts.

..

I'm using a Warthog setup. I've used the "Axis Tune" to set all my controls the same way. For me this setup allows me fine control for gentle corrections but also gives me full control deflection when I need it with reasonable response time. It helps me to not over control and develop PIO (pilot induced oscillation).

The Spit is completely out of elevator trim when you get in from DCS and even if you trim full nose down as i do this plane climbs suddenly up in the sky like hell in neutral. a straight flying is´nt possible even full trim down.

Think they have to fix that nonsense.

I uses now only saturation Y 50% of elevator range in the adjustment and 35% curvature for more flat curve. So i take off with boost 4 and trim full down and stick also full nose down ! While i have only 50% deflection the plane is much better and smooth in elevator control now and still you can fly very hard curves up to black out and wing losses. I uses this because i like to roll a while straight tail up along the runway; All Spits i saw yet did not a 3 point take off like you can do in the 190 nicely.

Also i noticed the take off is much easier with flaps DOWN because these are the only effective things which brings your nose down without whobbling around!!

The 190 and the 109 are for me easier with take off just because the spit is completely out of trim with elevator; btw. trim does´nt work enough to bring nose down for levelflight.

I set Rudder axis tuneDeadzone 25 SatX 100 Sat Y 50 Curve 30

X axis deadzone 15 Sat X 100 Sat Y 90 Curve 30. made all the diff in the world

The Spit is completely out of elevator trim when you get in from DCS and even if you trim full nose down as i do this plane climbs suddenly up in the sky like hell in neutral. a straight flying is´nt possible even full trim down.

Think they have to fix that nonsense.

 

I uses now only saturation Y 50% of elevator range in the adjustment and 35% curvature for more flat curve. So i take off with boost 4 and trim full down and stick also full nose down ! While i have only 50% deflection the plane is much better and smooth in elevator control now and still you can fly very hard curves up to black out and wing losses. I uses this because i like to roll a while straight tail up along the runway; All Spits i saw yet did not a 3 point take off like you can do in the 190 nicely.

 

Also i noticed the take off is much easier with flaps DOWN because these are the only effective things which brings your nose down without whobbling around!!

 

The 190 and the 109 are for me easier with take off just because the spit is completely out of trim with elevator; btw. trim does´nt work enough to bring nose down for levelflight.

There is something wrong with your setup. There is more than enough trim to bring the nose level and what you say contradicts your earlier statement that the Spit rears up after takeoff.

First if all, the correct takeoff trim is somewhere between 1 grad down (training load with no ammo) and zero trim (fully loaded with rear internal and an external fuel tank - see real pilots notes). I set trim to half grad down and it is fine. After takeoff you will need to adjust the trim according to changing airspeed. I have to trim up to remove the takeoff setting but as airspeed develops I can feather that off a little. Of course I also have to wind off much of the right rudder trim that I have set. I find about 40% right trim is enough for takeoff whereas full right trim as pilots notes is too much so I do agree there is perhaps some trim work to be done.

By dumbing down your controls (especially saturation) like that you are removing the sensitivity that the Spit is famous for. A friend of mine used to fly the Spit and he always said you could fly it with two fingers (thumb and forefinger). I do have curves set - 20% - but assuming the FM is designed to be faithfully responding to the standard linear stick inputs from Windows Devices I hope to remove that when I get used to it. One thing I have never been sure of is if the FMs are designed like that but I assume they are. Also we do not have a faithful reproduction of the feel of the control column - I doubt if even FFB gives the correct feel for every aircraft - so we are fighting that problem anyway which is one reason why people add curves.

There is something wrong with your setup. There is more than enough trim to bring the nose level and what you say contradicts your earlier statement that the Spit rears up after takeoff.

 

First if all, the correct takeoff trim is somewhere between 1 grad down (training load with no ammo) and zero trim (fully loaded with rear internal and an external fuel tank - see real pilots notes). I set trim to half grad down and it is fine. After takeoff you will need to adjust the trim according to changing airspeed. I have to trim up to remove the takeoff setting but as airspeed develops I can feather that off a little. Of course I also have to wind off much of the right rudder trim that I have set. I find about 40% right trim is enough for takeoff whereas full right trim as pilots notes is too much so I do agree there is perhaps some trim work to be done.

 

By dumbing down your controls (especially saturation) like that you are removing the sensitivity that the Spit is famous for. A friend of mine used to fly the Spit and he always said you could fly it with two fingers (thumb and forefinger). I do have curves set - 20% - but assuming the FM is designed to be faithfully responding to the standard linear stick inputs from Windows Devices I hope to remove that when I get used to it. One thing I have never been sure of is if the FMs are designed like that but I assume they are. Also we do not have a faithful reproduction of the feel of the control column - I doubt if even FFB gives the correct feel for every aircraft - so we are fighting that problem anyway which is one reason why people add curves.

Nope !

All plane designer and manufacturer try to make their planes flying straight with stick in neutral at a given speed, powersetting and height.

The DCS Spitfire you can set power or speed or fly at any height.....it always goes nose up like hell and you cant trim it enough nose down for easy level flight !

The Spit was known to be easier in flight and more relaxing to its trim abilities than the 109 where the pilot always has to counteract with some rudder most time.

In DCS the 109 is much better trimmed from Factory and easier and smooth to flight level than the Spit.

Therefore and only therefore i did strange things with the axis settings and noticed that they give her to much inputrange which she does´nt need at all !

hi!all

As "Klem" saying ,your setup seems to be wrong.

Indeed after take off and making flaps up you have to trim the aircraft,and the feature works well.

While flying at a level to be stable trim elevator have to be half grad or neutral and trim rudder slightly to right.

Instead the default trim elevator on take off try to use half grad or neutral and will see that the plane goes more slowly up when making flaps up,more easy to control if you are smouth on stick and throttle.

Practice is solution.

And Spitfire is a different plane than BF109 or FW190.

Have to thanks DCS and third part devs to make their modules with so accuracy.

Done it with a Thrustmaster WarThog and Thrustmaster pedals.

If you get same material i'm ready to post my curves.

Anyone got decent touch and go's down yet? On two wheels?

IMHO I think your curves are too shallow. I use 15% curve on the Y axis mainly because the Warthog's "bump" in the middle ... of course everything is down to personal preference.

The spit is very sensitive, but I think is better learning to be gentle with the Joy's inputs than reducing the airplanes responsivenes..

Anyone got decent touch and go's down yet? On two wheels?

The truth is that I feel more confident doing 3-pointers with all the tail draggers. This forces me to focus on an stable glideslope, and keeping the correct landing speeds. They just feel more safe

I have made several 2 wheelers, a couple of them fairly decent. The key I think is having the plane trimmed nose heavy ... at least thats what Works for me. If you're going for a touch and go, rember to apply power gently and be ready for a bit of rudder dance, nothing dramatic, you know the drill

:pilotfly:

Had some fun with her last night...

Poser! :)

I flew just the A10C before. Long awaited Spitfire is something complete different.

Meanwhile I start the Merlin at first attempt.

Take Off and Landing isn't as difficult as taxiing (to me).

I started to manage bringing her to the RWY, as I tuned my Toebrake-Axis. I set it to "Slider" with an ease curve (will look what value). In the A10 I didn't care about that. To put the brakes to the Stick (like in the real one) is maybe a good idea. Will check this althow at the Stick are just Triggers.

Slightly and modest(!) use of brakes seems to trim the COG so she turns into the wanted direction.

All in all successful steering is a mixture of Throttle-, Rudder- and Brakes-Play. Elevator pulled all the time.

What a workload... (in the A10 I can have Breakfast in the Cockpit while taxi). I try it without assistance (read about this here in this Thread).

I'm still on learning "to put her on". Right now I can't imagine to handle her in combat :joystick:

PS: Meanwhile I found this:

hi!all

As "Klem" saying ,your setup seems to be wrong.

Indeed after take off and making flaps up you have to trim the aircraft,and the feature works well.

While flying at a level to be stable trim elevator have to be half grad or neutral and trim rudder slightly to right.

Instead the default trim elevator on take off try to use half grad or neutral and will see that the plane goes more slowly up when making flaps up,more easy to control if you are smouth on stick and throttle.

Practice is solution.

And Spitfire is a different plane than BF109 or FW190.

Have to thanks DCS and third part devs to make their modules with so accuracy.

 

Done it with a Thrustmaster WarThog and Thrustmaster pedals.

If you get same material i'm ready to post my curves.

i have no problem with any plane or chopper but i say the stock elevator trim of the DCS Spit is wrong due to it´s constantly node up trim even when trimming full nose down !

Ans what i mentioned before that any plane designer did create his plane for a steady flight for a given speed, power and altitude you can read it in DCS´s Spitfire manual yourself at

page 141 "level flight" : " 6. The aircraft is easily balanced by trimmers on the entire diapason of horizontal flight. An aircraft properly configured may be left to fly uninterrupted without pilot intervention."

This isn´t possible at all with the DCS´s Spit !

DCS Spit get nose up with neutral stick and full elevator trim down !!

When you fly level look behind; youe elevators are more or less downwards still putting force to your stick !

It´s a easy thing to fix; but you have to agree that the plane is stockwise bad trimmed or at least the trim adjustment range is much to less effective !

I suggest to fix that and give us a trimmed plane as written here in DCS Spitfire manual:

page 143:

"Before performing aerobatic maneouvers, first balance the aircraft by its trimmers at an IAS of 200mph."

I noticed now the trim action off the elevator trim is opposite to the trim gauge in cockpit !!!

When you move trimwheel forward your gauge shows nose down which should be OK so far....unless you are looking to your elevator Frise trim which are moved in the wrong direction....for nose UP !

To train on the dancing for both take off and landing, I did several pure ground run on a free runway : just align, accelerate, keep on the runway while dancing, then lower engine to decelerate and stop at the other end of the runway, still keeping on the runway with the rudder dance.

Do a 180°.

Rince and repeat in the other direction.

Several of these got me to master the take off, somehow. Landing I'm now nearly never breaking the plane anymore, even though I still touch wing tips from time to time.

That might help too, thanks :)

I have gotten much better at taking off, still got work to do on my landings.

Love the plane though!

hi!all

Indeed after take off and making flaps up

Since when you use flaps on takeoff ? :D

I noticed now the trim action off the elevator trim is opposite to the trim gauge in cockpit !!!

When you move trimwheel forward your gauge shows nose down which should be OK so far....unless you are looking to your elevator Frise trim which are moved in the wrong direction....for nose UP !

I think you are saying that the trim tab moves up when trimming the nose down. This is correct. When the Trim tab moves up in the airflow (i.e. when flying) the airflow acts on it and it pushes the actual elevator down so that the tail rises (the nose goes down). Some people have difficulty getting their heads around that but it is true.

Also be sure that when you think you are trimming nose down the gauge needle does go down. If not, your trimmer calibration needs to be reversed in your control settings (assuming you are using an axis). Your description sounds as though the nose is being trimmed up when you expect it to go down. I can assure you that the trimmer does have the capacity to trim the nose down for level fight. Have you adjusted it's calibration so that you don't get full trimmer travel (e.g. put in an extreme curve or reduced the saturation).

EDIT: never take off with the flaps down.

Kubanloewe, a few people here suggested You to double check Your controls setup, and You stubbornly refuse to do so, even though what You say is blatantly NOT true. At least not in the latest stable version of the game, sim flight mode, 100% saturation and 25% curve on pitch axis, plus non-FFB joystick (my setup). I've just finished a short test flight and the results are as follows:

a) elevator trim tabs animations are correct and work according to indicator in cockpit and flight attitude changes (tab up -> elevator down -> nose down; tab down -> elevator up -> nose up);

b) it doesn't seem to be possible to even maintain neutral pitch with trim full nose down, let alone any pitch up, as You suggest, even at very high airspeeds. I did a steep dive test from 20k m with trim full nose down and I had to constantly pull the stick even at 600 mph indicated. As soon as I neutralized the stick a little too fast at that speed, the plane nosed down rapidly, causing my pilot to blackout, never to recover. So the plane is definitely pitch-trimmable in all operational speeds range.

If controls check doesn't work, I don't know, disable mods, repair the game, reinstall the module or whatever, because something's clearly not right with You install.

Kubanloewe, a few people here suggested You to double check Your controls setup, and You stubbornly refuse to do so, even though what You say is blatantly NOT true. At least not in the latest stable version of the game, sim flight mode, 100% saturation and 25% curve on pitch axis, plus non-FFB joystick (my setup). I've just finished a short test flight and the results are as follows:

 

a) elevator trim tabs animations are correct and work according to indicator in cockpit and flight attitude changes (tab up -> elevator down -> nose down; tab down -> elevator up -> nose up);

 

b) it doesn't seem to be possible to even maintain neutral pitch with trim full nose down, let alone any pitch up, as You suggest, even at very high airspeeds. I did a steep dive test from 20k m with trim full nose down and I had to constantly pull the stick even at 600 mph indicated. As soon as I neutralized the stick a little too fast at that speed, the plane nosed down rapidly, causing my pilot to blackout, never to recover. So the plane is definitely pitch-trimmable in all operational speeds range.

 

If controls check doesn't work, I don't know, disable mods, repair the game, reinstall the module or whatever, because something's clearly not right with You install.

a) is correct, i see.

b) is nonsense to do that in a dive. The plane (if not all planes) has to be trimmed from factory to nearly steady stable flight at for spit perhaps 220-250mph and perhaps 2500rpm and 4 boost; i could be more i dont know but in DCS the plane goes nose up at ANY trim positions in neutral; that´s a fault, imho.

Since i noticed that the huge elevator range is more a downside than a positive feature in that model I fly now with only 60% of elevator range and it does very well and smooth ;-)

I dont need more because even at high speed the 100% only let you fast black out or wing braking...

I will do the same with rudder which is much to sensitive too, imho.

reduced braking is´nt a problem yet but i will see.

I know a short PC-Flightstick with only 1/4 or less movement than a original Flightstick in a cockpit is the main reason for hectic unsteady inputs and movements; that was always a problem.

I am so loving this plane, the more I fly it the more I fall in love with it!

I have about 3 hours in it now, takeoffs are pretty good now - landings still need a little work but are getting there.

Bring on Normandy, can't wait!

The greatest observation I had yesterday was the first time I managed to... watch a saved track properly, with cold start, takeoff & landing.

Either they fixed track recording in update 5, or there was something different in my pre-flight procedure, but at last it's good to watch a correctly synced replay and evaluate all good and bad things about my takeoffs and landings.