Jump to content

Curve or no Curve?


Rhinozherous

Recommended Posts

Do you use curves on the sensible flight controls of the Eagle?

 

 

I dont on the stick, but I do put a very small dead zone (2) to prevent inadvertent movements. However, I dont have rudder pedals, so I use a Hotas rotary as rudder, and that does require curvature (15) and a dead zone (3). I hope one day be able to purchase a rudder pedal :)

 

For work: iMac mid-2010 of 27" - Core i7 870 - 6 GB DDR3 1333 MHz - ATI HD5670 - SSD 256 GB - HDD 2 TB - macOS High Sierra

For Gaming: 34" Monitor - Ryzen 3600X - 32 GB DDR4 2400 - nVidia GTX1070ti - SSD 1.25 TB - HDD 10 TB - Win10 Pro - TM HOTAS Cougar - Oculus Rift CV1

Mobile: iPad Pro 12.9" of 256 GB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dead-zones should be set according to the state of joystick (if it "flickers" when left alone in neutral position it will need some dead zones).

 

Here are my recommendation for curvative setup for CE2:

 

Depending on the joystick, curves on pitch and roll should be set between 0 - 15. This mostly depend on the available movement of the joystick.

Joysticks that have less than 6 cm movement (measured at the middle of a handle) need ~15 curvative to relieve the player from constant stick position adjustments during flight.

For joysticks that have 6 - 10 cm movement, curvative between 10 - 0+ is recommended.

For movement greater than 10 cm (e.g. sticks with extension, 13-15 cm movement) curvative is not needed.

 

Curvative is also useful for precision formation flying.

 

In essence, curvative is there for user comfort: set it to best fit your needs.

 

Hope this helps.

Power through superb knowledge, training and teamwork.

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dead-zones should be set according to the state of joystick (if it "flickers" when left alone in neutral position it will need some dead zones).

 

Here are my recommendation for curvative setup for CE2:

 

Depending on the joystick, curves on pitch and roll should be set between 0 - 15. This mostly depend on the available movement of the joystick.

Joysticks that have less than 6 cm movement (measured at the middle of a handle) need ~15 curvative to relieve the player from constant stick position adjustments during flight.

For joysticks that have 6 - 10 cm movement, curvative between 10 - 0+ is recommended.

For movement greater than 10 cm (e.g. sticks with extension, 13-15 cm movement) curvative is not needed.

 

Curvative is also useful for precision formation flying.

 

In essence, curvative is there for user comfort: set it to best fit your needs.

 

Hope this helps.

 

This helps indeed, I use the Warthog HOTAS without extension. I will measure the movement and trie your recomendations.

i7-14700KF 5.6GHz Water Cooled /// ZOTAC RTX 4070 TI Super 16GB /// 32GB RAM DDR5 /// Win11 /// SSDs only

DCS - XP12 - MSFS2020

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FWIW For stick just use saturation, curves change the input vs output around the center of of stick movement making input non linear as you move the stick further from center. Where as saturation scales down the sensitivity over the whole range.

 

It's that they are 2 different effects with similar affect in center but different affect as you move away from center.

 

Oh BTW if you have noise in the joystick it's probably time to replace the pots or the joystick depending on the unit.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FWIW For stick just use saturation, curves change the input vs output around the center of of stick movement making input non linear as you move the stick further from center. Where as saturation scales down the sensitivity over the whole range.

 

It's that they are 2 different effects with similar affect in center but different affect as you move away from center.

 

Oh BTW if you have noise in the joystick it's probably time to replace the pots or the joystick depending on the unit.

 

Thank you, I never was sure what saturation is really doing. Much clearer now! My Warthog has not that much noise, it is shiny new. Just a few month old :) (and I love it)

i7-14700KF 5.6GHz Water Cooled /// ZOTAC RTX 4070 TI Super 16GB /// 32GB RAM DDR5 /// Win11 /// SSDs only

DCS - XP12 - MSFS2020

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't recommend decreasing the saturation since it decreases joystick output, decreasing the control authority.

 

Will trie Curves, as this seems more realistic to me because I have no extemsion.

i7-14700KF 5.6GHz Water Cooled /// ZOTAC RTX 4070 TI Super 16GB /// 32GB RAM DDR5 /// Win11 /// SSDs only

DCS - XP12 - MSFS2020

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tried now with 15 on the Warhog HOTAS, it was too much. Ended up with 10 on pitch and roll axis.

 

Be aware you can likely work down till you confident with controls. :thumbup:

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know how much throw or travel the stick moves IRL but because my VKB MCB is very sensitive, I reduced the Saturation to 75% for both Pitch and Roll and my Rudder pedals Saturation is at 85%.

 

While this may not be nearly as "snappy" on the controls, it does seem much smoother flying ... for me at least.

 

I'd like to find a video that shows just how much a Real Life Pilot moves the stick for full deflection of the control surfaces.

SnowTiger:joystick:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You'll slowly drop that saturation as you get used to it.

 

Whilst no specifically CE2

 

 

 

 

Go to about 15min in I'll let you make up you mind,.. :D

 

 

:D

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't recommend decreasing the saturation since it decreases joystick output, decreasing the control authority.

 

+1

 

FWIW For stick just use saturation, curves change the input vs output around the center of of stick movement making input non linear as you move the stick further from center. Where as saturation scales down the sensitivity over the whole range.

 

It's that they are 2 different effects with similar affect in center but different affect as you move away from center.

 

 

This is incorrect.

 

Reducing saturation will reduce sensitivity but it also removes a portion of available control.

 

If you set pitch saturation to 70% you'll only have 70% elevator authority available. For normal operations you might not notice anything amiss, but in certain circumstances, especially very-low-speed manoeuvring (stall-fighting etc) that missing 30% will kill you. You'll be flapping your elevators around in the dead air but they just won't 'bite'.

 

It can also introduce effects that can be mistaken for bugs. If you reduce the rudder saturation on the Mig-15 to around 50% then it completely breaks the ground-steering.

 

Curves keep 100% control authority but the price is the curve ramps up significantly as you approach the limits.


Edited by Lixma 06
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

This is incorrect.

 

Reducing saturation will reduce sensitivity but it also removes a portion of available control.

 

If you set pitch saturation to 70% you'll only have 70% elevator authority available. For normal operations you might not notice anything amiss, but in certain circumstances, especially very-low-speed manoeuvring (stall-fighting etc) that missing 30% will kill you. You'll be flapping your elevators around in the dead air but they just won't 'bite'.

 

Curves keep 100% control authority but the price is the curve ramps up significantly as you approach the limits.

 

Sorry but exactly where am I incorrect?

 

 

If you observe the application of saturation it's rather self evident that the extremes are reduced in exchange for the controls being less sensitive however if your starting out this can help sensitivity and reduce pilot induced oscillation. Sure it's not perfect but neither is a joystick on a desk top but if your a beginner and that's all you've got and it builds confidence then the problem is what?

 

If you also read further I also indicate that the user will eventually or at least likely reduce saturation or curvature if that's their preferred option for them as they get more confident.

 

YMMV. ;)

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry but exactly where am I incorrect?

 

Incorrect was the wrong word, sorry.

 

It's just that....

 

Where as saturation scales down the sensitivity over the whole range.

 

....doesn't really tell the whole story. If you reduce saturation you no longer have the 'whole range' available which is a pretty bad side-effect.

 

He even said...

 

Thank you, I never was sure what saturation is really doing.

Edited by Lixma 06
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Incorrect was the wrong word, sorry.

 

It's just that....

 

 

 

....doesn't really tell the whole story. If you reduce saturation you no longer have the 'whole range' available which is a pretty bad side-effect.

 

Sure I get what you're saying, but for a beginner who is more likely will get into trouble initially by having too much control or seeming over sensitive control over such a small swing of a joy stick.

 

Curvature is not without it's issues depending on how much is applied, given a small amount of effect at center then ramping that control up as the stick moves further from center can also be a little confronting when correcting input at first.

 

I'm not saying one is perfect over the other neither would be preferred it's what suits the user so they get more confident rather then walk away frustrated with it. I just consider it kinda like training wheels for a sim.

 

Besides if you watch the videos I linked I don't think that leaves any doubt exactly how much control input is needed. :D

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Curvature is not without it's issues depending on how much is applied, given a small amount of effect at center then ramping that control up as the stick moves further from center can also be a little confronting when correcting input at first.

 

Yeah, I've slowly been reducing the curves I use a tiny % at a time so I don't notice it.

 

I'm not sure whether it's just God having fun but it seems that when you put a curve on an axis it just so happens that the range you need the most control is just the point where the curve starts ramping up the sensitivity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is a solution, but your wife wont like it as it will cost more money and you will put more sim hours up. :D

 

home built or you could buy commercial unit

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I should specify that I affect ONLY the "Y" Saturation axis.

 

That said, if I have the Y Saturation set to 70%, are you sure I only have 70% authority ?

 

The CE2's control surfaces are directly cable connected to the stick. I get Full Deflection of the control surface, only a tad slower.

IMO, changing the Y Saturation Only, affects only the speed at which the full effect takes place.

 

Am I Wrong ? I'm asking.

SnowTiger:joystick:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BTW FragBum, thanks for the video links.

I have seen this Svetlana video (and maybe others) as well as many RedBull Race vids and you can really see the pilots throwing that stick around (of course they have extensions and I don't ... yet !).

However, then I have seen Gazelle videos (no comparison on fly dynamics or style but) and the pilots only move the stick about 3 inchs from full pull to full push (or full left to right). i.e. minimal movement compared to a Huey for example.

 

In any case, I expected it would be much more like in the video examples you provided.

 

So thanks again.

SnowTiger:joystick:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I should specify that I affect ONLY the "Y" Saturation axis.

 

That said, if I have the Y Saturation set to 70%, are you sure I only have 70% authority ?

 

The CE2's control surfaces are directly cable connected to the stick. I get Full Deflection of the control surface, only a tad slower.

IMO, changing the Y Saturation Only, affects only the speed at which the full effect takes place.

 

Am I Wrong ? I'm asking.

 

I don't have the CE but this is what reducing the saturation does on a Mustang. Keep your eyes on the 'control helper' widget in the bottom-left. You'll see me pulling the joystick fully back at varying saturation levels.

 

 

And this shows the difference in elevator authority in the external view...

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...