Weird flight directional stability

Yeasterday I flew 109 after 6 months, and I have to say that feelings I have are not positive. What Im talking about is directional stability around all three axes after takeoff and climb (speed range 100 - 300 kph). At threse speeds, Im now not flying the plane, but constant fighting with controls to keep flight as stright as possible. Than I took same flight, same conditions with Fw190 a Mustang. The difference at these speed range is HUGE. After that, I saw this vid:

Of course yes, this is not K variant, it is lighter and different CoG. It is amazing how the G-4 in this vid is stable around 300kph, even during takeoff speeds. I would love to see at least similar behavior here in DCS, not some flight model, which is based on questionable charts and tables, resulting in very weird flight model at low and mid speeds.

Edited February 18, 2019 by GumidekCZ

i guess what you are experiencing is the stick and rudder forces which kick in at really low speeds in the 109.

 

btw, i guess you didnt really mean 100kph?

i guess what you are experiencing is the stick and rudder forces which kick in at really low speeds in the 109.

 

btw, i guess you didnt really mean 100kph?

I mean it. Now experiencing low directional stability at 300, and much worse at 200kph, than how much stability you get at 100? Why is it so difficult to takeoff these plane and keep is stable after takeoff? Because ever since of release of this module, FM struggled at slower speeds.

ok...but at 100kph youre not flying but are either still on the ground, or stalling, or if going unloaded vertically up, just about to stall.

 

and yeah, its the most unstable plane when its about inputs. thats due to the cg which is pretty far back especially with a full fuel tank, and the aformentioned stick and rudder forces. which give it a rubberbanding feeling during the whole flight regime. feels like input lag, and sometimes feels very unnatural. unfortunately the stick forces already kick in at take off speeds.

also the rudder effects on the 109 are strange, and mainly cause rolling without really yawing. in a vertical climb for example, when trying to avoid a left yaw with right rudder input, sometimes it will still yaw to the left, but start rolling to the right, which makes the situation even more uncontrollable.

Edited February 18, 2019 by birdstrike

https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZbDil7ZemmRHIqm1UVE64IceJjdApf4Hf2V

Look at my recored I made today. Stable climb at 300kph. Than suddenly without any input ..... This is broken, really. I have X52 PRO joy without forcefeedback as most of the DCS pilots. So stick forces are no good to me.

You were at 24000ft trying to do a very slow loop at 300kph.

 

What were you expecting to happen?

You were at 24000ft trying to do a very slow loop at 300kph.

 

What were you expecting to happen?

 

i dont think he was trying to do a loop...

 

 

https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZbDil7ZemmRHIqm1UVE64IceJjdApf4Hf2V

Look at my recored I made today. Stable climb at 300kph. Than suddenly without any input ..... This is broken, really. I have X52 PRO joy without forcefeedback as most of the DCS pilots. So stick forces are no good to me.

 

i just did...believe me, force feedback doesnt help when its about stickforces.

the way they implemented the stickforces feels confusing to say at least. would love to know the logic behind them, how they are exactly programmed, but no word from the devs about it...

 

now watching your video, you are pretty much flying on the ball :thumbup:.

first, you are in a very slight slip, giving slightly too little rudder. then there comes the point where you begin to slightly skid, giving just a notch too much right rudder. and this is when the 109 begins to raise its nose. yeah, i too think this effect might be overdone, while drag effects of slips and skids are undermodeled. so couple this pitch up effect with the fact, that slight to medium slips dont cause drag, and you get the unfortunate result of being more effective when flying ball not centered, and just slightly slip through the air.

Edited February 18, 2019 by birdstrike

You were at 24000ft trying to do a very slow loop at 300kph.

 

What were you expecting to happen?

I repeat my self again. I was trying to climb at most effective climb speed, not max. preformance. Also trying to fly best ball my Saitek rudder can do and after climbing stable without any major input correction, than happened what you saw in my vid. The actual loop was not my work, the plane did itself without my input! :joystick:

 

May be I should stay in cockpit to able see the input overlay picture.

 

 

then there comes the point where you begin to slightly skid, giving just a notch too much right rudder.

There was NO change of rudder input after managed to almost fly the stable ball in climb. All you see in vid is just unstable FM.

 

 

If the DCS FM will require precise ball centered flying to be able to fly, than we all are facing some serious trouble when it comes to newbies and unexperienced pilots. They will HATE this plane and its FM.

Edited February 18, 2019 by GumidekCZ

There was NO change of rudder input after managed to almost fly the stable ball in climb. All you see in vid is just unstable FM.

 

you slightly slowed down over time. the slower the aircraft, the more of a pitch up tendency will be noticeable. the more it pitches up, the more right rudder is needed to center the ball, if you center the ball, it will usually even more pitch up. so forward pressure on the stick will be required. this situation you experienced in the video is really not desireable in the 109, and is usually easier to handle when keeping a slipped attitude, i.e. giving less right rudder.

 

 

If the DCS FM will require precise ball centered flying to be able to fly, than we all are facing some serious trouble when it comes to newbies and unexperienced pilots. They will HATE this plane and its FM.

 

imho, i think its these differences to other sims, that make dcs attractive and thats why people decide to switch to dcs, otherwise they could stick with the other sims, which offer more content for WW2.

 

and honestly, i think dcs FM should give even more attention to effects like "flying on the ball"and its advantages, and on the contrary the effects when flying not on the ball, not coordinated.

 

i think thats what makes those prop birds stand out to fly by wire jets, and fun to master the challenge. i personally wish they increased the effects.

on the other hand, if they started to decrease these effects, and therefore downgrade the FM, i would start to ask myself why not just switching to the competition.

 

newbies have several options like "auto rudder" and take off assistance. and as of late, they even made the friction of the tires much more forgiving for the 109, so that take offs and landings are much more easy to handle, and slips on the ground will not that quickly end in fatal crashes. there are guys like me who dont like this direction, and think, that this should as well be optional. options are always good. but there should as well always be the option to have it as realistic as it gets without compromise.

 

having said that, i never said that i am of the opinion that everything is alright with the 109.

Edited February 18, 2019 by birdstrike

you slightly slowed down over time. the slower the aircraft, the more of a pitch up tendency will be noticeable. the more it pitches up, the more right rudder is needed to center the ball, if you center the ball, it will usually even more pitch up. so forward pressure on the stick will be required. this situation you experienced in the video is really not desireable in the 109, and is usually easier to handle when keeping a slipped attitude, i.e. giving less right rudder.

 

 

 

 

imho, i think its these differences to other sims, that make dcs attractive and thats why people decide to switch to dcs, otherwise they could stick with the other sims, which offer more content for WW2.

 

and honestly, i think dcs FM should give even more attention to effects like "flying on the ball"and its advantages, and on the contrary the effects when flying not on the ball, not coordinated.

 

i think thats what makes those prop birds stand out to fly by wire jets, and fun to master the challenge. i personally wish they increased the effects.

on the other hand, if they started to decrease these effects, and therefore downgrade the FM, i would start to ask myself why not just switching to the competition.

 

newbies have several options like "auto rudder" and take off assistance. and as of late, they even made the friction of the tires much more forgiving for the 109, so that take offs and landings are much more easy to handle, and slips on the ground will not that quickly end in fatal crashes. there are guys like me who dont like this direction, and think, that this should as well be optional. options are always good. but there should as well always be the option to have it as realistic as it gets without compromise.

 

having said that, i never said that i am of the opinion that everything is alright with the 109.

 

I couldn't agree more with all of the above. I'm at the edge of quitting it in favour of Red Baron or smth..

I repeat my self again. I was trying to climb at most effective climb speed, not max. preformance. Also trying to fly best ball my Saitek rudder can do and after climbing stable without any major input correction, than happened what you saw in my vid. The actual loop was not my work, the plane did itself without my input! :joystick:

 

May be I should stay in cockpit to able see the input overlay picture.

 

Sorry, my mistake; I see what you meant now.

https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZbDil7ZemmRHIqm1UVE64IceJjdApf4Hf2V

Look at my recored I made today. Stable climb at 300kph. Than suddenly without any input ..... This is broken, really. I have X52 PRO joy without forcefeedback as most of the DCS pilots. So stick forces are no good to me.

Sooo, exactly what I thought when you spoke about instability in first place. Almost at the edge of stall, 6K+ m, 1.41Ata in the engine :doh:, and you really expect it to, what? Do you understand torque effect is worst the higher you engine setting and the lower your speed? Do you understand high altitude flying isn't like a stroll at low altitude and aircraft basically doesn't fly in the thin air? Do you understand best climb speed is 330-380Km/H in the 109 and it goes higher the higher the altitude so 300 is really slow? I've climbed up to 10.000m in the Bf109 and she goes well so don't tell me it's wrong and doesn't work.

 

If your feelings aren't positive stay well away from real aviation mate :music_whistling: .

 

the way they implemented the stickforces feels confusing to say at least. would love to know the logic behind them, how they are exactly programmed, but no word from the devs about it...

Try reading the forums first next time, "no word from devs" but you have a pinned thread right above this one and a linked discussion.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=200423

 

now watching your video, you are pretty much flying on the ball .

first, you are in a very slight slip, giving slightly too little rudder. then there comes the point where you begin to slightly skid, giving just a notch too much right rudder. and this is when the 109 begins to raise its nose. yeah, i too think this effect might be overdone, while drag effects of slips and skids are undermodeled. so couple this pitch up effect with the fact, that slight to medium slips dont cause drag, and you get the unfortunate result of being more effective when flying ball not centered, and just slightly slip through the air.

Yeah, but you don't notice the engine seting he's flying on while you know as a matter of fact drag is underdone I guess because you've flown the real deal, as always. FYI the DCS drag and slips are the closest to real World you're gonna get in front of your monitor, and I do know not flying a 109, just a humble Cessna as well as other GA aircraft, I can tell you though that's how it works in real life. Don't compare to other so called "sims" out there, compare it to real life.

 

I couldn't agree more with all of the above. I'm at the edge of quitting it in favour of Red Baron or smth..

Yeah, me too, I'm quitting for Microprose 1983 Fighter Pilot, that was a FM :lol:.

 

 

S!

Ala13_ManOWar you are my hero on this forum

i agree 100%

I have no trouble in smooth take off in bf109

i climbed in bf109 to 12500m in dcs it works great

Sooo, exactly what I thought when you spoke about instability in first place. Almost at the edge of stall, 6K+ m, 1.41Ata in the engine :doh:, and you really expect it to, what? Do you understand torque effect is worst the higher you engine setting and the lower your speed? Do you understand high altitude flying isn't like a stroll at low altitude and aircraft basically doesn't fly in the thin air? Do you understand best climb speed is 330-380Km/H in the 109 and it goes higher the higher the altitude so 300 is really slow? I've climbed up to 10.000m in the Bf109 and she goes well so don't tell me it's wrong and doesn't work.

 

If your feelings aren't positive stay well away from real aviation mate :music_whistling: .

Oh, another super expert on the horizont :lol: There are plenty of you these days on this forum :pilotfly: Do you know what is IAS, do you know how pitot tube and speed calculation works? If yes and if DCS speed calculation is correct, than 300 IAS km/h is no way stall speed. It would, if it was TAS.

And I was 5-6km height (around 15-18000 ft) Santa dont have any stall problems at this alt :D

 

Oh, and nobody on this world is telling YOU, what is wrong. Dont take everything personaly....TAKE IT EASY man :thumbup:

i climb with full power if you keep speed stable and slip ball in the middel bf is very stable

Sooo, exactly what I thought when you spoke about instability in first place. Almost at the edge of stall, 6K+ m, 1.41Ata in the engine :doh:, and you really expect it to, what? Do you understand torque effect is worst the higher you engine setting and the lower your speed? Do you understand high altitude flying isn't like a stroll at low altitude and aircraft basically doesn't fly in the thin air? Do you understand best climb speed is 330-380Km/H in the 109 and it goes higher the higher the altitude so 300 is really slow? I've climbed up to 10.000m in the Bf109 and she goes well so don't tell me it's wrong and doesn't work.

 

If your feelings aren't positive stay well away from real aviation mate :music_whistling: .

 

Try reading the forums first next time, "no word from devs" but you have a pinned thread right above this one and a linked discussion.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=200423

 

Yeah, but you don't notice the engine seting he's flying on while you know as a matter of fact drag is underdone I guess because you've flown the real deal, as always. FYI the DCS drag and slips are the closest to real World you're gonna get in front of your monitor, and I do know not flying a 109, just a humble Cessna as well as other GA aircraft, I can tell you though that's how it works in real life. Don't compare to other so called "sims" out there, compare it to real life.

 

Yeah, me too, I'm quitting for Microprose 1983 Fighter Pilot, that was a FM :lol:.

 

 

S!

 

well, your real life flying experience of a couple of hours in a cessna a couple of years ago is really impressive :lol: :megalol:

YOU cant tell me anything about real life flying.

and again, your reading comprehension really is lacking, either on purpose or not :doh:

Edited February 18, 2019 by birdstrike

he kept 300 kph while climbing but at 1.4 ata 300kph is kinda hard to harness

what was the weather conditions during that climb any wind ??

did you turn on pitot heat it may got frozen

but anyway in those planes you cant just trim out and leave it those planes require constant attention so whne plane did the loop you should prevent it form doing that

that why autopilots systems were designed to put plane on path.

you cant just hands off and flight straight

 

I just test this scenation 1.4ata prop auto climbed up to 10km

i could fly stable between 160km/h - 300km/h below 160 bf109 was very unstable winds speed up high about 2m/s

OFC you have to put small correction on you stick from time to time but i managed to keep it stable 300kph is way beyong stall speed

below 160 bf started to draw small circles with tip of nose(dont know how to name it :))

 

i will post it again look how much pilot moves stick to keep flight straight the speed is something around 220kph but you will get idea

Edited February 18, 2019 by grafspee

Oh, another super expert on the horizont :lol: There are plenty of you these days on this forum :pilotfly: Do you know what is IAS, do you know how pitot tube and speed calculation works? If yes and if DCS speed calculation is correct, than 300 IAS km/h is no way stall speed. It would, if it was TAS.

And I was 5-6km height (around 15-18000 ft) Santa dont have any stall problems at this alt :D

 

Oh, and nobody on this world is telling YOU, what is wrong. Dont take everything personaly....TAKE IT EASY man :thumbup:

Well, yeah, my pilot's license says I know that. Right. And you, do you know stall speed is higher in thin air? The last read in you altimeter is around 7K, I watched it mate :thumbup:. And yes, you're right, I'm pretty tired of so called experts running to say here everything is wrong because they have flown others sims and History channel says so.

 

 

well, your real life flying experience of a couple of hours in a cessna a couple of years ago is really impressive :lol:

YOU cant tell me anything about real life flying.

and again, your reading comprehension really is lacking, either on purpose or not

Well, actually I'm not an English tongue native and I make mistakes (less than I see to natives around here) and of course I can mislead some things sometimes, but still I can teach you correct formal English and flying real aircraft so that's 2-0. What do you have? :lol: To my understanding it's you who don't get it, he's just describing an absolutely normal behaviour in the conditions he's flying on, that's all. Surprised RL is like that? So I'm sorry to disappoint you two, but yes, RL is like that.

 

 

he kept 300 kph while climbing but at 1.4 ata 300kph is kinda hard to harness

what was the weather conditions during that climb any wind ??

did you turn on pitot heat it may got frozen

but anyway in those planes you cant just trim out and leave it those planes require constant attention so whne plane did the loop you should prevent it form doing that

that why autopilots systems were designed to put plane on path.

you cant just hands off and flight straight

 

I just test this scenation 1.4ata prop auto climbed up to 10km

i could fly stable between 160km/h - 300km/h below 160 bf109 was very unstable winds speed up high about 2m/s

OFC you have to put small correction on you stick from time to time but i managed to keep it stable 300kph is way beyong stall speed

below 160 bf started to draw small circles with tip of nose(dont know how to name it )

 

i will post it again look how much pilot moves stick to keep flight straight the speed is something around 220kph but you will get idea

Thanks mate, that's a terrific test on the fly :thumbup: . Yeah, sometime they'll understand these aircraft aren't hands-off at all and even less under critical conditions as those are.

 

 

 

S!

flying in real life is my daily job. so nope, you wont teach me real flying. but you are funny, you said that you dont even fly anymore in real life, and now you are about to teach others to? :) would really love to have a flying session with you :)

 

and nope, it will take a couple of more years until dcs might become like real life flying. the fact that you think it is already, says everything really. :)

Edited February 18, 2019 by birdstrike

flying in real life is my daily job. so nope, you wont teach me real flying. but you are funny, you said that you dont even fly anymore in real life, and now you are about to teach others to? :) would really love to have a flying session with you :)

No, I don't due to disease, thanks. But I would gladly meet you and take a spin :thumbup: .

 

 

S!

problem is that very few ppl flying those type of planes to day or maby someone did fly ww2 era plane here ??

flying in real life is my daily job. so nope, you wont teach me real flying. but you are funny, you said that you dont even fly anymore in real life, and now you are about to teach others to? :) would really love to have a flying session with you :)

 

and nope, it will take a couple of more years until dcs might become like real life flying. the fact that you think it is already, says everything really. :)

good to know that you are the pilot so can you tell me whats wrong with bf109 whats your opinion on it is it suposed to akt like that or not

 

bf109 is a little tricky is something like wild beast comparable to fw190 or p-51 both of this are much more stable in flight

Edited February 18, 2019 by grafspee

problem is that very few ppl flying those type of planes to day or maby someone did fly ww2 era plane here ??

 

 

You know who ED's Publisher is right? ED has full access to ww2 aircraft and the pilots, who also test the aircraft.

 

http://fighter-collection.com/cft/tfc-aircraft-directory/

 

What's your experience with ww2 aircraft grafspee?

 

Edited February 19, 2019 by David OC

If they have the capability to fly the K-4, as I said before in other threads, I'll pay for 1 hour of flight, where we can test the behaviour to see if it matches the game. Whos' with me?