3 versions of P47

Wasn't even aware of the 47 having those, just knew it from the 38. Probably because I never flew any variant with them in any sim before...

 

 

 

First thought was you'd have to give ED a time machine to achieve this since that day literally was almost two weeks ago until I realized (again) that you guys across the pond have that day on the 3rd Sunday in June

As I recall, only the D-30 through D-40 had them. I don't recall whether the P-47M had them, but I don't think they did. As I recall the M's were really just modified D-27 airframes with the R-2800 'C' engine and the larger turbo installed.

The P-47N deleted the dive flaps to make room for the wing tanks.

While researching this, I was rather surprised at the sheer number of D-30/40 Thunderbolts produced. If I'm counting the planes right (http://joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p47_4.html) somethingike half of all bubble top planes were D-30+ aircraft. I suspect that they arrived to the front after the Luftwaffe had been largely defeated, but would need to do a lot more digging to trace when units actually got to the front.

However, due to how many were produced, I expect the D-30 would be an excellent for for immediate post-war skirmishes, along with the F4U-4 and -7 and late model Mustangs, so it will be a good fit for DCS.

As I recall, only the D-30 through D-40 had them. I don't recall whether the P-47M had them, but I don't think they did. As I recall the M's were really just modified D-27 airframes with the R-2800 'C' engine and the larger turbo installed.

 

The P-47N deleted the dive flaps to make room for the wing tanks.

 

While researching this, I was rather surprised at the sheer number of D-30/40 Thunderbolts produced. If I'm counting the planes right (http://joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p47_4.html) somethingike half of all bubble top planes were D-30+ aircraft. I suspect that they arrived to the front after the Luftwaffe had been largely defeated, but would need to do a lot more digging to trace when units actually got to the front.

 

However, due to how many were produced, I expect the D-30 would be an excellent for for immediate post-war skirmishes, along with the F4U-4 and -7 and late model Mustangs, so it will be a good fit for DCS.

First of the bubbletops were delivered to the 8th AF in May, 1944 a year after the Battle of the Atlantic was won. Without the submarine threat in the Atlantic, a large part of the small jeep carrier production was diverted to the primary task of transporting aircraft to the front; an aircraft fuselage represents a lot of semi-empty space that could have gone to more 'solid' weight being carried in the hull of the ship, so this freed up a lot of larger cargo ships for other needs--food supplies in Britain improved quickly during that period, along with all the other stuff that armies, navies and air forces run on.

At the same time, American industrial production had finally sorted itself out which meant that aircraft production really kicked into high gear; parts arrived in sufficient numbers and on time, rail transport reached peak efficiency, etc, etc. Consider how the first Merlin Mustangs were produced in late May of 1943, and that it took until December of that first year for the first USAAF and RAF units to enter combat, and another four months before the 8th AF had a significant portion of its fighter groups converting to the Pony.

By May of 1944, the logistics problems were practically solved, and time it took for a fighter built in Illinois or Indiana (or Dallas or LA) to reach its intended Fighter Group was much, much shorter than it had been in May of 1943. It took even less time for retrofit kits for things like dive brakes to make it to frontline units, which means that the actual differences between aircraft delivered as D-40 and D-30 were fewer than you'd think.

In some cases, the earlier dash 30s were upgraded to D-40 standards before the first D-40s reached that combat unit. Installing a few pair of 'zero length' rocket launcher stubs on the wings was probably less work than you might think (especially if the crews doing the upgrades were doing them every day for weeks on end).

In the case of the P-47, the bubbletops represented a significant improvement in range and performance, so combat units grabbed 'em and discarded the razorback models, which couldn't be retrofitted with the greater fuel capacity or field of vision. The LW still showed up in numbers from time to time right up to Bodenplatte, and there were medals and scores to pile up when they did.

The 9th AF inherited a lot of those discarded razorbacks on the principal that ground support required less range and all-around vision than long range escort. Hence, you still see a lot of 9th AF razorbacks in early 1945.

cheers

horseback

I'd like to see these figures. The P-51 with and W/O the pylons has a 15mph speed difference at altitude. I can't imagine, given the enormous size of the P-47 pylons, that they wouldn't provide a significant performance boost with their removal.

Would be great to have if it's been done IRL. But well, we can remove pylons from the Hornet and Viper with absolutely no effect on performance which is yet to be implemented.

Two weeks ago where you are? I didn't know that. Where is Ponyvile, by the way? Must be a very colorful plave.

Ackchyually, I'm one off the oddies here, if you check that list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father%27s_Day - Ascension Day, May 21st here. Didn't know we're the only ones with that date though... one always learns something new

Regarding Ponyville... well, completely different calendar there, so nothing to be comparable really. And it's probably less colorful than you might think... just dropping some amazing artwork in that spoiler:

First of the bubbletops were delivered to the 8th AF in May, 1944 a year after the Battle of the Atlantic was won. Without the submarine threat in the Atlantic, a large part of the small jeep carrier production was diverted to the primary task of transporting aircraft to the front; an aircraft fuselage represents a lot of semi-empty space that could have gone to more 'solid' weight being carried in the hull of the ship, so this freed up a lot of larger cargo ships for other needs--food supplies in Britain improved quickly during that period, along with all the other stuff that armies, navies and air forces run on.

 

At the same time, American industrial production had finally sorted itself out which meant that aircraft production really kicked into high gear; parts arrived in sufficient numbers and on time, rail transport reached peak efficiency, etc, etc. Consider how the first Merlin Mustangs were produced in late May of 1943, and that it took until December of that first year for the first USAAF and RAF units to enter combat, and another four months before the 8th AF had a significant portion of its fighter groups converting to the Pony.

 

By May of 1944, the logistics problems were practically solved, and time it took for a fighter built in Illinois or Indiana (or Dallas or LA) to reach its intended Fighter Group was much, much shorter than it had been in May of 1943. It took even less time for retrofit kits for things like dive brakes to make it to frontline units, which means that the actual differences between aircraft delivered as D-40 and D-30 were fewer than you'd think.

 

In some cases, the earlier dash 30s were upgraded to D-40 standards before the first D-40s reached that combat unit. Installing a few pair of 'zero length' rocket launcher stubs on the wings was probably less work than you might think (especially if the crews doing the upgrades were doing them every day for weeks on end).

 

In the case of the P-47, the bubbletops represented a significant improvement in range and performance, so combat units grabbed 'em and discarded the razorback models, which couldn't be retrofitted with the greater fuel capacity or field of vision. The LW still showed up in numbers from time to time right up to Bodenplatte, and there were medals and scores to pile up when they did.

 

The 9th AF inherited a lot of those discarded razorbacks on the principal that ground support required less range and all-around vision than long range escort. Hence, you still see a lot of 9th AF razorbacks in early 1945.

 

cheers

 

horseback

There's actually a number of important generations to be mindful off for that.

According to what Greg's Airplanes and Autos was able to dig up, all do the C and A models were plumbered and certified for a 200 gallon belly drop tank Republic had developed, but the "Bomber Mafia" blocked procurement or use of it. I believe most of the P-47C and D versions were also able to mount the British 108 gallon tanks as well.

The D-20 had the Universal Wing that was able to, among other things, mount the 108 gallon drop tanks the British were making.

The D-22 was the first ones fitted with the paddle bladded propeller for improved climb performance.

The D-25 was the first bubble top and was the first version with the 370 gallon internal fuel capacity. It did not have the dive flaps. At least according the Wikipedia, that's the version that starts showing up in May of 1944.

The D-27 was the basis for the P-47M's and I believe it was the first one with the dorsal fin, but I don't think they were fitted with the dive flaps.

The D-30 is the version we have here. It is the one with the dive flaps added.

I can see the dorsal fin being a straight forward retrofit, but were the dive flaps something that could be fitted in the field? I would expect those to have non-trivial structural requirements, given the purpose.

I just seem to see much about dive flap equipped P-47's, especially given the number built. It makes me wonder why?

So to reiterate, the Bubble tops started at the D-25, not the D-30, so the dive flaps did not come in with the bubble tops; they came in half way through the bubble top production, and I still don't have a clean idea of exactly when they were built.

Further, Bodenplatte was the last significant combat operation of the Luftwaffe. That was January 1st 1945. The was in the Pacific ended in August 1945, so we're looking at at least 8 months of full production after the end of air combat in Europe.

Just back of the envelope, if the D-25 started showing up in May 1944, and we assume production stopped on August 1945, with about 7,000 bubbletop's produced, of which about 3500 were D-30+ units, if we assume that production is constant over that period, we're looking at 450 planes per month, which would mean that by the Operation Bodenplatte in January 44, they would only just start receiving the D-30 models with the dive recovery flaps. That would imply most of the D-30+ models ended up either filling ground attack roles in Europe or going to the Pacific. And, if you're correct about them Esme faring older models to ground pounding duty, that would imply that most of the new builds got send to the Pacific theater A's the European theater turned into a primarily ground war.

I also expect a certain percentage of the D-40's to have ended up just sitting on lots when the orders for new units shut off at the end of the war.

The D-27 was the basis for the P-47M's and I believe it was the first one with the dorsal fin, but I don't think they were fitted with the dive flaps.

P-47M was actually D-30 with a new engine and gunsight.

The last D-30-RE S/N was 44-21107

the first M-1-RE S/N was 44-21108

And M left factory without dorsal fin, it was retrofited in England.

P-47M was actually D-30 with a new engine and gunsight.

 

The last D-30-RE S/N was 44-21107

the first M-1-RE S/N was 44-21108

 

And M left factory without dorsal fin, it was retrofited in England.

Serves me right for not double checking the details lol:

http://joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p47_12.html

Apparently the YP-47M's were D-27's and were fitted with dive flaps at the factory, but the production P-47M's were D-30's.

So it looks like in September they were still producing D-27's, but had shifted over to D-30's before December, and it does state that the factory can Refit the dive flaps onto the wings, but I think there's still open questions on when they started producing the dive flap equipment installed, whether it could be retro fitted into an existing aircraft, and some question on when they started entering combat units. Baugher mentions that the P-47M entered operations in December, but also that they were rushed to the front after the refit, so there's both probably son engineering time to Refit them, and some reduced logistics time to get them in the hands of the 56th.

Cool :)

It will be funny if we're able to rebuild a complete timeline of the aircraft.

Is it nuts that I already want an M model? Lol!

I'm not sure why you wouldn't want a K-14 gunsight.

 

Hopefully our P-47 comes with the Hamilton propeller and without wing pylons like also proposed in earlier screen shots.

Wing pylons are removable!!! I wonder if you go any faster though?

Wing pylons are removable!!! I wonder if you go any faster though?

Yeah, which is great.

However, I'm actually struggling to master this beast right now. I find it very difficult to fly.

There's actually a number of important generations to be mindful off for that.

 

According to what Greg's Airplanes and Autos was able to dig up, all do the C and A models were plumbered and certified for a 200 gallon belly drop tank Republic had developed, but the "Bomber Mafia" blocked procurement or use of it. I believe most of the P-47C and D versions were also able to mount the British 108 gallon tanks as well.

 

The D-20 had the Universal Wing that was able to, among other things, mount the 108 gallon drop tanks the British were making.

 

The D-22 was the first ones fitted with the paddle bladded propeller for improved climb performance.

 

The D-25 was the first bubble top and was the first version with the 370 gallon internal fuel capacity. It did not have the dive flaps. At least according the Wikipedia, that's the version that starts showing up in May of 1944.

 

The D-27 was the basis for the P-47M's and I believe it was the first one with the dorsal fin, but I don't think they were fitted with the dive flaps.

 

The D-30 is the version we have here. It is the one with the dive flaps added.

 

I can see the dorsal fin being a straight forward retrofit, but were the dive flaps something that could be fitted in the field? I would expect those to have non-trivial structural requirements, given the purpose.

 

I just seem to see much about dive flap equipped P-47's, especially given the number built. It makes me wonder why?

 

So to reiterate, the Bubble tops started at the D-25, not the D-30, so the dive flaps did not come in with the bubble tops; they came in half way through the bubble top production, and I still don't have a clean idea of exactly when they were built.

 

Further, Bodenplatte was the last significant combat operation of the Luftwaffe. That was January 1st 1945. The was in the Pacific ended in August 1945, so we're looking at at least 8 months of full production after the end of air combat in Europe.

 

Just back of the envelope, if the D-25 started showing up in May 1944, and we assume production stopped on August 1945, with about 7,000 bubbletop's produced, of which about 3500 were D-30+ units, if we assume that production is constant over that period, we're looking at 450 planes per month, which would mean that by the Operation Bodenplatte in January 44, they would only just start receiving the D-30 models with the dive recovery flaps. That would imply most of the D-30+ models ended up either filling ground attack roles in Europe or going to the Pacific. And, if you're correct about them Esme faring older models to ground pounding duty, that would imply that most of the new builds got send to the Pacific theater A's the European theater turned into a primarily ground war.

 

I also expect a certain percentage of the D-40's to have ended up just sitting on lots when the orders for new units shut off at the end of the war.

SIGH!

My post was in response to comments about the versions DCS will be providing us shortly.

Still with Greg. Historical references, specifically including the 4th FG's war diary, state that the 200 gallon belly tank was actually

(a) unpressurized and essentially useless at altitudes the early P-47 was effective at; it could only be half filled and was reportedly dropped well before reaching 15-20,000 ft

(b) unreliable and prone to failure, breaking fuel lines or just falling off during takeoff during the few times from late July to early September that they were used.

© had a complex shape, implying extra cost and limited availability

(d) was replaced in September 1943 with the more effective paper belly tanks

First version of the Jug with wing pylons (and plumbing for drop tanks) was the D-15-RE/RA; first examples reaching the 56th FG in March of 1944 (per Roger Freeman's Thunderbolt (1978 ) and confirmed from dated photographs in various printed sources). The date is further confirmed by the fact that the Jugs with pylons all have non-white noses, which strongly indicates that they were available after the March 1944 8th Fighter Command orders assigning nose band colors by Group.

D-23-RE (RA=Evansville, Indiana) and D-22-RE (RE=Farmingdale, Indiana) were the first versions delivered with paddle blade props; Hamilton Standard from Evansville, and Curtiss Electric from the Farmingdale plant. The improvement in performance, in climb and lower alt acceleration were considered so critical that new props and installation kits were shipped to the 8th AF starting in Dec 1944, first examples going to the 56th FG.

D-25-RE/D-26-RA were indeed the first bubbletops with extra fuel capacity, the dash numbers apparently differ because the Evansville plant's products came with Hamilton Standard, and the Farmingdale plant offering came with Curtiss Electric props, but the aircraft were based on the same orders and were produced at the same time.

Big changes came with the D-28-RA/RE; the Hamilton Standard props at Evansville were discontinued and Curtiss Electric props are installed at both plants; from photo examples, these may have been the asymmetrical types-there appears to be a significant 'bulge' above the cuffs on the trailing edges of the props.

D-30-RE/RA appears to be the version we get from DCS; there are significant changes including the elimination of the ring and bead sights we don't see in the preview videos we are currently seeing, the major additions appear to be blunt nosed ailerons, electrical release for external stores, and a rearview mirror for the canopy, ending the midnight raids on RAF Spitfire bases for their coveted externally mounted rearview mirrors. These were also equipped with 'stock' dive brakes.

Having done a few retrofits and upgrades on various systems and vehicles as a defense contractor, plus knowing that there definitely were retrofit dive brake kits for the P-38Js in the ETO, it seems more than probable that earlier versions of the P-47 were retrofitted with similar dive brake kits well before the D-30s arrived in theater. The P-47s didn't need the dive brakes near as badly as the Lightning, but it was a time of abundance for the 8th and 9th Air Forces.

Bodenplatte essentially ended effective organized German fighter operations; most of the kills credited by 8th AF after that are ground kills, which we now know were mostly a waste of time, ammo and men's lives. P-47D production appears to have ended with the introduction of the ultra long ranged P-47N for the Pacific Theater in late 1944/early 1945; P-47Ds were used in the Southwest Pacific and CBI, but not much liked.

As for production up to VJ Day, Republic's orders to halt production for the P-47N came literally the day after the Japanese signed the documents in Tokyo Bay, and the US started handing out the the excess Thunderbolts still in Europe like candy to the reconstituting Allied air forces; I know that Italy and France got a few squadrons' worth, along with air forces in South & Central America. Much of the excess in the USA were either converted to National Guard or Air Reserve units for a while, but most ended up in scrap yards in southern Arizona along with the thousands of P-40s, Mustangs, B-17s and B-24s that were suddenly obsolete.

Most were melted down by the late 1950s, but the survivors could still be had for shockingly low prices as late as the mid-1970s (my Dad was offered a low hours P-51D with a crated spare engine for $10,000 in 1969--if my Mother hadn't put her foot down...)

cheers

horseback

Give me the P-47M or give me death.

Yeah, which is great.

 

However, I'm actually struggling to master this beast right now. I find it very difficult to fly.

Me too. I’m having pitch sensitivity issues that’s causing pilot induced porpoising.... I’m trying to figure out a curve I feel comfortable with that doesn’t make the plane slow to respond.

Definitely doesn’t fly like the preview videos.

But I AM flying with a $20 Logitech extreme 3d pro so maybe that’s my issue?

Me too. I’m having pitch sensitivity issues that’s causing pilot induced porpoising.... I’m trying to figure out a curve I feel comfortable with that doesn’t make the plane slow to respond.

I noticed that on a FFB2 as well, and I did set my curve to 25 already. It's very sensitive, excatly opposite of the ailerons. The porpoising came up especially at low speeds.

I noticed that on a FFB2 as well, and I did set my curve to 25 already. It's very sensitive, excatly opposite of the ailerons. The porpoising came up especially at low speeds.

FFB2? Is that short for force feed back?

...

But I AM flying with a $20 Logitech extreme 3d pro so maybe that’s my issue?

Good god man!

Throw it in the dumpster and set it on fire :shocking:

Me too. I’m having pitch sensitivity issues that’s causing pilot induced porpoising.... I’m trying to figure out a curve I feel comfortable with that doesn’t make the plane slow to respond.

 

Definitely doesn’t fly like the preview videos.

 

But I AM flying with a $20 Logitech extreme 3d pro so maybe that’s my issue?

I don't the budget of your stick is the problem :P. The plane is incredible trim heavy, I don't ever recall reading about this.

Btw, the top speed with and w/o pylons is the same. Water injection doesn't seem to be modeled, I can't get 64"Hg on the deck nor is there any water pressure.

Yeah pitch sensitivity reminds me of the spit.... And it seems to be very unstable in both pitch and yaw. Wouldn't surprise me if some of this is still WIP...

Yeah pitch sensitivity reminds me of the spit.... And it seems to be very unstable in both pitch and yaw. Wouldn't surprise me if some of this is still WIP...

Yeah, worst case scenario lets say the plane was this unstable with the dorsal fin. How in the hell did Gabby, flying the P-47D-25, even shoot anything down that wasn't in level flight? :megalol: Then again, the P-47N had an even larger dorsal fin.

I'm excited to see this fixed, but I'm worried there is nothing to fix, lol.

i find it interesting that according to ED rockets are exclusive only to D40s when there are reports of HVARS being officially issued for use as early as July 1944 by 9th air force P47's during the battle of St LO. And even prior to that they were using M10 Bazooka rocket packs with earlier razorbacks

"Yeah, worst case scenario lets say the plane was this unstable with the dorsal fin. How in the hell did Gabby, flying the P-47D-25, even shoot anything down that wasn't in level flight? Then again, the P-47N had an even larger dorsal fin."

I think you misunderstand something. The dorsal fin was there to fix the lateral instability problem...it didn't cause it.

Copied from America's Hundred Thousand, specifically from the 'Trim' section on the P-47:

P-47

"There were some differences in trimmability between models. “The P-47D-25 trimmed harder than the D-15” but generally longitudinal and lateral trimmability was satisfactory on the P-47, and the tabs were very sensitive. There was very little trim change with gear retraction and initial acceleration; dropping flaps made the airplane slightly nose heavy. Longitudinal trim changes with power and speed changes were small, and elevator tab power was sufficient to trim stick forces to zero at all speeds and all normal center of gravity locations. The aileron trim tab action was sufficiently powerful for all flight conditions, and the rudder tab could trim pedal forces to zero at all speeds above 120 mph IAS in the power on clean condition. But as with other fighters, like the P-40, the rudder trim force change with changing power or speed was objectionably high."

You have a 2000 hp engine and a gigantic propeller; I would expect it to need a lot of trim. This will be even more problematic with a simulator and your standard non-FFB joystick, where you have to fight an out of trim condition showing as an off-center stick, which means you are fighting the stick's centering springs.

The stick on Gabby's aircraft didn't have centering springs.

Note also that the tabs are described as 'sensitive'--that means that small changes get big results, like with the Mustang. If your trims are on axes, consider changing the saturation or curve.

cheers

horseback

Not sure what the issues are with people saying it's difficult to fly? I'm in a RAF Spitfire squadron, and find the P-47 much easier to fly generally. Can obviously fly the Spit fine now, but was no where near as steady with only 2 flights in it. The P-47 flies smooth, comfortable, predictable, and goes where I want it to. How a big car like a 1976 Cadillac Eldorado drives... LOL Yes, you need to trim, but you do in every warbird, and it doesn't change drastically like the Spitfire does with minor engine changes. With the Spitfire every time you move the RPM or throttle in the slightest, you're completely re-trimming pitch and rudder. I'm using a TM 160000 (Warthog still on backorder), and MFG rudder pedals.

i find it interesting that according to ED rockets are exclusive only to D40s when there are reports of HVARS being officially issued for use as early as July 1944 by 9th air force P47's during the battle of St LO. And even prior to that they were using M10 Bazooka rocket packs with earlier razorbacks

The P-47 EDM show on modelviewer HVAR rocket rails on argument 310 and 311. I Think ED can add M-8 rockets with M10 Bazokas and HVARS later as other new bombs to others WW2 aircrafts.

i find it interesting that according to ED rockets are exclusive only to D40s when there are reports of HVARS being officially issued for use as early as July 1944 by 9th air force P47's during the battle of St LO. And even prior to that they were using M10 Bazooka rocket packs with earlier razorbacks

 

 

 

 

Yeah I find that strange as well.

Yeah I find that strange as well.

Difficulties in modelling all that due to missing a crucial part of documentation or something I'd guess. Or just the amount of sheer work is too much, dunno.