Jump to content

Controling tendency to want to roll during flight?


Recommended Posts

I apologize if this has been asked, but I was curious how those who have a lot of time in the 109 control the tendency for the plane to want to roll clockwise during flight with no rudder trim or aileron trim settings? At the moment, I've been just adding small rudder and roll inputs to keep her flying straight. I can trim out the 51, 190, and Spit to fly pretty stable, but in the 109 - without trim tabs on 2 of the 3 surfaces - not so much. Is this normal, or am I missing something? Thanks.

Ryzen9 5800X3D, Gigabyte Aorus X570 Elite, 32Gb Gskill Trident DDR4 3600 CL16, Samsung 990 Pr0 1Tb Nvme Gen4, Evo860 1Tb 2.5 SSD and Team 1Tb 2.5 SSD, MSI Suprim X RTX4090 , Corsair h115i Platinum AIO, NZXT H710i case, Seasonic Focus 850W psu, Gigabyte Aorus AD27QHD Gsync 1ms IPS 2k monitor 144Mhz, Track ir4, VKB Gunfighter Ultimate w/extension, Virpil T50 CM3 Throttle, Saitek terrible pedals, RiftS

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team

109 is perfectly trimmed for cruise flight at 1.1-1.15 ata.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

Link to comment
Share on other sites

109 is perfectly trimmed for cruise flight at 1.1-1.15 ata.

 

Hi YoYo,

 

are you shure? Because cruise settings ( Reiseflug/Dauerleistung ) is ATA 1.25 by 2400 rpm. ATA 1.1 - 1.15 by 2000 - 2100 rpm is fuel save flight, not cruise flight. So the 109 is trimmed for fuel save flight? The ATA info are infos from the Messerschidt Museum in Manchingen for G10 till K4.

 

Also i noticed that the automatic on the 109 is verry slow and maby all other flightsimes make it wrong and only you make it right, but should the automatic not hold the rpm that i set with ATA? I mean, i set ATA 1.25 on the runway, start and up to full throttle high, the automatic gives me 2400 rpm. It will change the angle of atack from the prop to hold 2400 rpm against the speed, airpressure, etc. Of curse as i climb i have to give more power to hold ATA 1.25 and the automatic will hold the 2400 rpm till i reach the full trottle high, from there i should fly with ATA1.35 with 2600 rpm as stated in the handbock of the 109.

 

But maby i am only an unknowing flight simulations fan.

 

By the way, the normandy map even if it is alph is great i love it. Well done gents. cant wait to get more WW2 stuff from DCS.

 

regards

 

Little_D

1./JG2_Little_D

Staffelkapitän

1./Jagdgeschwader 2 "Richthofen"

 

"Go for the leader, if you can. The path is the goal, the kill the result."

"The one who has 12, leads. The one who has six, follows."

 

YouTube Channel: 1./JG2 Filmkanal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team
Hi YoYo,

 

are you shure? Because cruise settings ( Reiseflug/Dauerleistung ) is ATA 1.25 by 2400 rpm. ATA 1.1 - 1.15 by 2000 - 2100 rpm is fuel save flight, not cruise flight. So the 109 is trimmed for fuel save flight? The ATA info are infos from the Messerschidt Museum in Manchingen for G10 till K4.

 

Also i noticed that the automatic on the 109 is verry slow and maby all other flightsimes make it wrong and only you make it right, but should the automatic not hold the rpm that i set with ATA? I mean, i set ATA 1.25 on the runway, start and up to full throttle high, the automatic gives me 2400 rpm. It will change the angle of atack from the prop to hold 2400 rpm against the speed, airpressure, etc. Of curse as i climb i have to give more power to hold ATA 1.25 and the automatic will hold the 2400 rpm till i reach the full trottle high, from there i should fly with ATA1.35 with 2600 rpm as stated in the handbock of the 109.

 

But maby i am only an unknowing flight simulations fan.

 

By the way, the normandy map even if it is alph is great i love it. Well done gents. cant wait to get more WW2 stuff from DCS.

 

regards

 

Little_D

I did not understand what you complain about, sorry. The pitch changing ratio in 109 is really slow... as it seems in comparison to hydromatics. But it's really ingenious as you use manual pitch control - this ratio is very harmonic with the speed changes during loops and other vertical maneuvers.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the replies. Very much appreciated.

Ryzen9 5800X3D, Gigabyte Aorus X570 Elite, 32Gb Gskill Trident DDR4 3600 CL16, Samsung 990 Pr0 1Tb Nvme Gen4, Evo860 1Tb 2.5 SSD and Team 1Tb 2.5 SSD, MSI Suprim X RTX4090 , Corsair h115i Platinum AIO, NZXT H710i case, Seasonic Focus 850W psu, Gigabyte Aorus AD27QHD Gsync 1ms IPS 2k monitor 144Mhz, Track ir4, VKB Gunfighter Ultimate w/extension, Virpil T50 CM3 Throttle, Saitek terrible pedals, RiftS

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

cruise settings ( Reiseflug/Dauerleistung ) is ATA 1.25 by 2400 rpm. ATA 1.1 - 1.15 by 2000 - 2100 rpm is fuel save flight, not cruise flight.

 

Err ... cruise flight means "fuel save flight." Cruise = fuel-saving power settings

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Echo38,

 

Reiseflug/Dauerleistung is cruise flight in german documents and not fuel save power settings. And as far as i know and read, all german 109 where trimmed for Reiseflug/Dauerleistung and not for fuel save power settings. So the 109 needs to be trimmed for ATA 1.25 and not for ATA 1.1

 

Regards

 

Little_D

1./JG2_Little_D

Staffelkapitän

1./Jagdgeschwader 2 "Richthofen"

 

"Go for the leader, if you can. The path is the goal, the kill the result."

"The one who has 12, leads. The one who has six, follows."

 

YouTube Channel: 1./JG2 Filmkanal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

No matter what ATA and RPM I set, for me the Bf109 keeps rolling to the right.

 

Slip ball is center though at for instance ATA 1.1 and 2000rpm.

Spoiler

W10-x64 | Z390 Gigabyte Aorus Ultra | Core i7 9700K @ 4.8Ghz | Noctua NH-D15

Corsair 32Gb 3200 | MSI RTX 3080ti Gaming X

Asus Xonar AE | TM Hotas Warthog

MFG Crosswind pedals | Valve Index

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

a certain amount of stick pressure is necessary. Its not a hands-off plane.

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reiseflug/Dauerleistung is cruise flight in german documents and not fuel save power settings.

 

Interesting. So what USAAF called "max cruise" is what Luftwaffe called (translated) "fuel save," and what USAAF called "max continuous" was what Luftwaffe called "cruise flight"? Or ... what?

 

For USAAF fighters, there were four given ratings. In order of most to least fuel-efficient, they were: max cruise, max continuous, military power, and war emergency power. In English aviation terminology, "cruise flight" means "fuel-saving flight." Max continuous referred not to fuel efficiency, but rather engine temperature.

 

[edit: derp! Most to least, not least to most.]


Edited by Echo38
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In order of most to least fuel efficient:

 

Sparflug = max cruise

Höchstzulässige Dauerleistung = max continuous

Steig- und Kampfleistung = military power

Start- und Notleistung = WEP (without MW50)

Sondernotleistung = WEP (with MW50)

 

Reiseflug is somewhere between Sparflug and Höchstzulässige Dauerleistung.

 

For the K-4 Reiseflug is 645 kph (1030 PS) at 8,4 km altitude. Dont know what ata it corrosponds to and 645 kph seem a bit fast for 1030 PS, but this is theoretically what it should be trimmed for!


Edited by rel4y

Cougar, CH and Saitek PnP hall sensor kits + shift registers: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=220916

 

Shapeways store for DIY flight simming equipment and repair: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/rel4y-diy-joystick-flight-simming

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, just tested. Thats 1.15 ata at 2400 rpm. The rudder is perfectly trimmed at that speed, buuuuut the elevator is totally out of whack! The nose points to the sky.

 

But the engine settings seem to be correct. Please try 1.15 ata, auto pitch sets 2400 rpm by itself btw. But the plane is not trimmed!

 

Reisflug_K4.jpg


Edited by rel4y

Cougar, CH and Saitek PnP hall sensor kits + shift registers: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=220916

 

Shapeways store for DIY flight simming equipment and repair: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/rel4y-diy-joystick-flight-simming

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Trimming the rudder and ailerons helps the pilots on long flights and not so much in dogfights. Ask yourself how many times did you trim the rudder and the ailerons in combat?

Specs:

Asus Z97 PRO Gamer, i7 4790K@4.6GHz, 4x8GB Kingston @2400MHz 11-13-14-32, Titan X, Creative X-Fi, 128+2x250GB SSDs, VPC T50 Throttle + G940, MFG Crosswinds, TrackIR 5 w/ pro clip, JetSeat, Win10 Pro 64-bit, Oculus Rift, 27"@1920x1080

 

Settings:

2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can someone explain why the Germans thought a plane didn't need a pilot trim?

Probably because Germany had to do with very limited resources, and aileron/rudder trim was considered a "nice to have".

And in fact this limitation did not prevent the German "Experten" from achieving astronomical kill counts.

LeCuvier

Windows 10 Pro 64Bit | i7-4790 CPU |16 GB RAM|SSD System Disk|SSD Gaming Disk| MSI GTX-1080 Gaming 8 GB| Acer XB270HU | TM Warthog HOTAS | VKB Gladiator Pro | MongoosT-50 | MFG Crosswind Pedals | TrackIR 5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I trim before getting into combat. Everytime. There's more to flying than just the dogfight. Plus, it makes aiming easier when the plane is trimmed.

The german planes were trimmed on the ground for a specific ATA and rpm.

Specs:

Asus Z97 PRO Gamer, i7 4790K@4.6GHz, 4x8GB Kingston @2400MHz 11-13-14-32, Titan X, Creative X-Fi, 128+2x250GB SSDs, VPC T50 Throttle + G940, MFG Crosswinds, TrackIR 5 w/ pro clip, JetSeat, Win10 Pro 64-bit, Oculus Rift, 27"@1920x1080

 

Settings:

2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, when the pickings were easier. Plus, the pilots flew forever.

The pickings were never easy

LeCuvier

Windows 10 Pro 64Bit | i7-4790 CPU |16 GB RAM|SSD System Disk|SSD Gaming Disk| MSI GTX-1080 Gaming 8 GB| Acer XB270HU | TM Warthog HOTAS | VKB Gladiator Pro | MongoosT-50 | MFG Crosswind Pedals | TrackIR 5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Without it, you can't pull up from a dive at very high speed.. those stick forces.. :)

 

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Specs:

Asus Z97 PRO Gamer, i7 4790K@4.6GHz, 4x8GB Kingston @2400MHz 11-13-14-32, Titan X, Creative X-Fi, 128+2x250GB SSDs, VPC T50 Throttle + G940, MFG Crosswinds, TrackIR 5 w/ pro clip, JetSeat, Win10 Pro 64-bit, Oculus Rift, 27"@1920x1080

 

Settings:

2.1.x - Textures:High Terrain:High Civ.Traffic:Off Water:High VisRan:Low Heatblur:High Shadows:High Res:1920x1080 RoC:1024 MSAA:4x AF:16x HDR:OFF DefS: ON GCI: ON DoF:Off Lens: OFF C/G:390m Trees:1500m R:max Gamma: 1.5

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, I don't own it. I thought all trim was set on the ground.

 

no, only aileron and rudder trims are set on the ground in options/special tab. elevator trim is in the plane and player modified like the P-51D. I tend to think this airplane is an evolution from the Fokker WWI stuff. And you can guess the amount of forward stick from rise of flight.

 

I usually set my rudder trim to a target speed and hold aileron trim the same amount in the opposite direction. This usually means having hands on the stick all the time since they are not modifiable inflight. Elevator trim is also sensitive you must use a rotary encoder as opposed to the hat switch. At least thats my opinion. Otherwise, in a dive past 500 kph, your stick is useless...

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...