Pierre Sprey & Lt. Col David Berke debate - Page 8 - ED Forums
 


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Old 08-12-2017, 11:30 PM   #71
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F-15, F-16 and A-10 where design over 40 years ago. What other aircraft has Sprey "help design" since then?
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:30 PM   #72
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....Guns on F-4s - to see where other forum members might be coming from is the fact that putting a gun on the F-4E didn't just magically change the Vietnam air war - it was just not black and white. A lot of the USAF pilots didn't want a gun because they knew it would put them in situations they were not trained for (which is another issue entirely).....
The situation they were afraid of was getting into a subsonic dogfight with a plane that had mediocre at best turn rates.

The assumption was the Phantom would do all it's engagements in BVR and at supersonic speeds so there was no need to train for slow dog fights.

Then they found out the hard way in Vietnam that BVR-only scenario they trained to was a pipe dream. The rest is history (startup of top gun, gun pods, etc etc)

History repeats itself with the F35. The F35 pilots are super confident that they will always win in BVR so there is no need to worry about slow dog fights after the winders are spent after that first turn at the merge.

So it's a safe bet that LM didn't bother to push the envelope with regard to turn-rate performance. No need, Aim9x is all that is required.

This is folly, murphy's law and the gremlins will be in full force when a real engagement happens.
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:35 PM   #73
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More info on weapons testing, including some weapons malfunctions
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=h...2016f35jsf.pdf
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:39 PM   #74
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F-15, F-16 and A-10 where design over 40 years ago. What other aircraft has Sprey "help design" since then?
Probably none, the last thing that today's vendor like Lockheed Martin wants is a critical thinker determined to make a really good product with no compromises.

Sprey is part of the old-school of engineers that prided themselves on quality work and had the mindset of keeping it simple for efficiency/cost sake.

That mindset is gone in today's aircraft maker. All they want to do is cram as much as they technically can to make their product stand out and look sexy during competition (if there is any) then after getting the contract start charging exorbitant amounts of money due to the complexity and the issues that will occur.

The F16 is one of the best planes ever built, not because of it's terrific performance and profile but because it was insanely cheap to produce both in yesterday's and today's dollars.

Why do you think the A10 continued to stay in service will past it's due date? It was a cost effective solution that met mission requirements, it's as simple as that.

And we all know about the F15 and it's reputation don't we.

He and the people that worked alongside him have a lot to be proud of.

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Old 08-12-2017, 11:47 PM   #75
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Not even Burt Rutan ask Sprey to help design aircraft?
Not even on this?


Northrop, Boeing, Beech, no aircraft company has had Sprey?
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:49 PM   #76
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Which Typical adversary is that?
Uh, the usual suspects. If you think we have seen any real challenge to our air forces in the past 30 years of actual combat you are sadly mistaken.
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:53 PM   #77
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The situation they were afraid of was getting into a subsonic dogfight with a plane that had mediocre at best turn rates.

The assumption was the Phantom would do all it's engagements in BVR and at supersonic speeds so there was no need to train for slow dog fights.

Then they found out the hard way in Vietnam that BVR-only scenario they trained to was a pipe dream. The rest is history (startup of top gun, gun pods, etc etc)

History repeats itself with the F35. The F35 pilots are super confident that they will always win in BVR so there is no need to worry about slow dog fights after the winders are spent after that first turn at the merge.

So it's a safe bet that LM didn't bother to push the envelope with regard to turn-rate performance. No need, Aim9x is all that is required.

This is folly, murphy's law and the gremlins will be in full force when a real engagement happens.
They were afraid of getting themselves in close because they had not been trained properly for A-A - it wouldn't have mattered if they were in F-15s if they didn't know how to use the thing in close.

Programs like Top Gun gave the Navy these close in skills to utilise the F-4 and it was fairly good in the right hands.

You are welcome to make your assumptions that seem to suggest that every air force around the world stuck with F-35 is totally clueless of course.
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:56 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by neofightr View Post
Uh, the usual suspects. If you think we have seen any real challenge to our air forces in the past 30 years of actual combat you are sadly mistaken.
Peer conflicts without Nukes? most sensible empires only bully the weak.
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:00 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Basher54321 View Post
They were afraid of getting themselves in close because they had not been trained properly for A-A - it wouldn't have mattered if they were in F-15s if they didn't know how to use the thing in close.

Programs like Top Gun gave the Navy these close in skills to utilise the F-4 and it was fairly good in the right hands.

You are welcome to make your assumptions that seem to suggest that every air force around the world stuck with F-35 is totally clueless of course.
Exactly and the reason they were not trained properly is because there were bad assumptions being made about BVR-only missions. And again history is repeating itself with the F35.

You are welcome to your assumptions as well.
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:02 AM   #80
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And we all know about the F15 and it's reputation don't we.

He and the people that worked alongside him have a lot to be proud of.
Okay - and would you perhaps agree that Sprey is proud of the F-15

I say this because I am astounded you could be so oblivious to the messages that have been spreyed (pun intended ) out publically all these years - not just in articles and videos but even books like "Boyd" by Coram that Sprey contributed to.

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