Back to the Rift CV1 after the Reverb

Well...

As some of you might have noted from my previous post. My reverb is currently Inop, and waiting on HP to send me backordered replacement... So much for that "pro" rapid replacement warranty...

At any rate, my choices were to go back to TrackIR or the Rift... Having tried both, its back to the rift...

Impressions....

Clarity, jesus, this sucks, I forgot how bad it was, how did I ever fly like this? I have to constantly use 2x zoom to read anything. On the plus side the 5X zoom or whatever it is is GREAT for the CV1.

Colors. Huh, I'm not color blind after all. Lots better in the Rift...

SDE... Oh yeah I could replicate this by taping some screen door material on my Reverb lenses... And smearing them in Vaseline to replicate the loss of clarity...

Tracking/frames. Meh, pretty good in either one. I did bump up PD back to 1.6 or so from 1.0 because I can't get it working with steam VR for some reason.

Anyhow, I figured I'd share the perspective from a downgrade point of view.

Thanks!!!

So, the colours in the reverb are that bad??

I've got a cv1 and I'm thinking about the reverb but a rift s or odysee + are also interesting.

It seems like the odysee + is no longer available in Europe? Why is that?

Some people say the rift s is no upgrade from the cv1 at all but others say it's a different world...... Very confusing.

Your reverb died just before I wanted to buy one! Are there more reverbs dying or are you just in bad luck??

Thanks for your update!!

Jozeff

I went back to my CV1 when I thought my Index was bad. Rough sailing for sure lol.

Ok, can you read the gauges clearly in the rift s?

My cv1 is always shimmering and jagged lined and that's what annoys me the most.

Is that better in the rift s? I'm hesitant to buy the rift s because of the small increase in resolution compared to the rift cv1.

Thanks

Jozeff

It is MUCH better in the Rift S than the CV1. You can read the gauges clearly when looking directly at them for sure.

Some people say the rift s is no upgrade from the cv1 at all but others say it's a different world...... Very confusing.

On paper the Rift S ain't big update at all. But many forgets that even if the resolution would be identical, the difference between PENTILE and RGB panels is huge....

And the difference really is that can you read a instrument label or number easily, or so you need to zoom to read it.

Example, in F-5E you can't see anything really in the speed instrument than just the hands direction/position. So you learn in time that what position is what number but that only after times you zoom in to read it. And more you use other modules with other values with and you don't learn that one instrument completely then more difficult you so it yourself by needing to zoom in to check it.

But with Rift S you don't need zooming. You can read the main speed take without zooming and just glance it. The Mach speed needle middle of the instrument is such that you have slight difficulty to read is it Mach 0.8 or 0.9 or very similar number, but as you can read is it next to something else, it is easy to learn and you don't get problems.

The speed instrument is top left one.

The mistake that VR makers made in first place that considers DCS is that they used a PENTILE displays for richer colors by OLED and smooth the low resolution to avoid headache.

While RGB was like better choise for low resolution panels.

The difference is major. You have big difference in clarity. Far greater than specs alone gives to understand. And the Wags to be quoted "I can read everything" what comes to hornet, is true.

But Rift S has own challenges, that Index and Reverb likely are better, and it is modules like M2000C with a new cockpit, where you have extremely tiny labels on panels like left side, and you have low contrasts, possibly Red-on-Black etc, and learning is difficult. Like it is difficult to find a radar bar switch if you don't know what to look for. So in learning phase in that module, you need to zoom in. But that is anyways better to do with everything as you learn to spot the locations and all details better in first hours.

Is Rift S so much worse than Reverb etc? No... The Rift S exactly does that what was required in DCS. And I do not deny my old opinion that TrackIR was better than Rift CV1 or Vice/Vive Pro/Odyssey+ as you had fast greater definition to read and learning was far easier and more enjoyable. But you didn't get that flight feeling etc. So it was better to use TrackIR for 1-10 hours to learn the cockpit and instruments operations and then jump to those headsets to learn to land and get feeling.

I would say that Rift CV1 is minimum that you can use to fly and learn the new module. So that DK2 is out of the question. But Rift S is a completely different league. As your immersion is greater, you don't zoom view, and you rarely need to lean forward to read something in cockpit.

Of course reverb is one step forward, but it is far less than from CV1 to S. As how useful and enjoyable the Rift S is, you don't need to get Reverb and hardware to run it.

But I still say, that developers should consider making a "VR friendly" or "VR optimized" cockpit regardless it is slightly off from real cockpit. Be it a recolor or labels fonts sharper, more contrasty or bigger even, but make the tiny labels more readable so CV1 would get better too. Be it a special option for VR detection or per module.

It wouldn't damage realism, just make things nicer to learn etc. As not everyone can buy Reverb and 2080Ti (or greater).

I've had a CV1 for years. Tried the Rift S and the Reverb.

The jump from CV1 to Rift S was phenomenal. With the CV1, I could not read anything with zooming in, and even then I often had to squint. With the Rift S --- I am in the cockpit. If I would characterize my experience in the CV1 as having to make lots of sacrifices for the 2D experience (compared to my 4K monitor), with the Rift S I would say --- no compromise (sure, the resolution is less, but I do not miss it).

The Reverb is definitely better in terms of resolution. Absolutely and consistently so, but in many circumstances, only subtly so. Nowhere near the leap from CV1 to Rift S (even if linear pixel resolution might indicate otherwise; as I have said before, perception scales logarithmically, not linearly).

I am definitely most pleased with my upgrade from CV1 to Rift S.

Is Rift S so much worse than Reverb etc? No... The Rift S exactly does that what was required in DCS.

I own a Rift S after my DK2 and CV1,it was ok,better in the Narrow than my CV1 the years before,but i still see the Pixel,the Blacklevel was more grey than Black and the Sound was horrible. I fly DCS and the F-16 and FA/18 with it,but i still have to use the VR-Zoom. On Simracing it was the Same,the Cockpits look mutch sharper compared to the CV1,but outside the world was still blurry and the Braking points still not good readable.

Then I heart about the Reverb. I was a Oculus fan and don't like to use SteamVR. After I read many reviews about the Reverb, I order one for testing. In Germany we can test the Hardware 14Days and send it back,if we unhappy with it. I place my order on Friday afternoon on the HP Store and get the Reverb on the next morning. Very impressive delivery...

So I install the WMR Software,WMR for Steam Beta and Steam VR Beta and was ready for testing.

I tested some Simracing titles and the clear Picture,the sharpness and the Sound,blows me away, after the Rift S. It was Plug&Play better for everything in Simracing and runs @90FPs,what was a lot better for me,than the 80FPS on my Rift S.

So I give it a go and test my DCS with it,but here was a lot do,before it run properly. I spend the hole day for the right settings,overclock my CPU and GPU and edit files to get Motionreprojection working. On the evening, I fly my first Night mission with the Reverb and that was the best VR experience I ever had before. I do the same mission with my Rift S after that, and in comparison, it look crap,the night was Grey and I noticed every Pixel.

I could test the Reverb 14 Days, but I put my Rift S after the first Day in Ebay and sold it on the Second.

It was a long way for setup DCS ,but now DCS runs so good with the Reverb, that I playing it most of the time. I play Doom VFR with the Reverb,Onward and many other titles, and I'm still impressed how good the Reverb is.

But to get the full potential, you need a 2080Ti and a very fast CPU.

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But to get the full potential, you need a 2080Ti and a very fast CPU.

That applies to everything.

What I said is that Rift S is that what DCS required. It is above the bar that makes DCS enjoyable and great experience as flight simulator point. That doesn't mean that Rift S is the best in quality, as there are better ones. But it means that you do not benefit from those others at all same amount as you benefit from going to Rift S from CV1 or any other similar.

If someone thinks that Reverb is best, then they are mistaken. As there is such a 6200 € monster as XTAL 5K https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=254598

Nothing comes even close to that in the performance and capability, but you will pay for it.... And that can even use PENTILE display because it is so high resolution that it will blow Reverb etc out of the water when it comes to quality and FOV etc.

Is that required? Hell no! That is like current ultimate VR for DCS! But not at all required by any means!

For minimum experience, CV1 is required.

For great experience, Rift S is required.

For amazing experience, XTAL 5K is required.

Everything else between those is just not so much differential. And considering that Rift S doesn't require so much at all from the hardware (and no, you don't need to raise rendering resolution etc) as other models, it gives cheaper options. No wall mountings, working hand controllers, excellent support etc etc. That is on this moment best bang for the buck.

If I would be ready to put 6200 € for a VR headset, I would have already ordered a XTAL when I read about it. But I am prepared to invest 10 000 € for a camera lens in next year (as price is unknown) and that is invest instead hobby payment, so with that I can generate money to buy that XTAL if still wanted. But after using and testing the Reverb and Index, I don't buy to those as they don't offer anything value over Rift S that would be worth the hassle.

Instead I am more waiting that what the ED comes up with the new weather system, new terrain engine and Combined Arms etc. As those will change far more radically what the VR can do for spotting and clarity.

The main problem with almost all these lower tier VR headsets is that their FOV horizontally is just narrow, what was already annoying in the DK2 time, until Pimax 5K experience that really set that "This is how it should be".

Why I am still waiting next 3-5 years when VR really needs to make it or die. As Oculus must put something serious out in CV2, but it needs to be at that 500 € price range.

Everyone is free to put the extra money for the Reverb etc. But that is not my point, but my point is that what is offering for a typical virtual pilot the great experience "out of the box". As if suddenly DCS starts to demand more resources, it will mean as well that current 2080 series cards might need to be replaced and that becomes expensive in near future.

The other point is that even when CV1 today is great for most VR games, it never has been excellent or great for the DCS. Because that readability problem. I got lot of hate from people talking about this when CV1 was the hottest kid in the town, because people mixed their feelings and emotions with the senses that they are not as capable to learn new aircrafts, spot the things around them and most importantly even read the cockpits. But they ignored it all and just said along "Just use zoom" etc. No, that is immersion breaking thing to do! And I said that two things needs to be fixed in VR to it make DCS great excellent experience. FOV is one that it needs to be at least 120-130 degree horizontal (and Reverb doesn't match that) and you need to be able to read the cockpit gauges without zoom or leaning etc. And Rift S does the latter one, matching the requirement that Reverb and others do as well. It does have narrower FOV than those others, but none other are close to the requirement that XTAL 5K or Pimax 4K Plus does offer.

And that is something that doesn't make Oculus CV1 terrible, unusable etc. It just makes it that it is the minimum that one should get and there is lots of those popping out now in second hand market and it is excellent deal to get such for 150-200€ (depending amount of sensors etc), but really for those who already know their aircrafts cockpits inside out and they don't need to read labels or search switches and buttons in cockpit and are ready to lean forward or zoom to read cockpit instruments. But for flying experience, great.

Went from a CV1 to a Rift S in the summer - wasn't expecting much given the stats on paper but given the low price point i was happy to pay for any upgrade to the poor clarity of the original rift (that said i still preferred VR flight to monitor or track IR).

Rift S - I was actually amazed - its a different world to play in :-)! Quite simply buy you will not regret it one bit and after trying also the reverb i would not part with my Rift S for the time being its an amazing bit of kit for the price.

I can actually read all the dials in the cockpits (Hornet / tomcat / viggen / Mi8 / huey / A10C) and the zoom is a thing of the past for cockpit reading or leaning in!

I would say,in a DCS "Pay per VR-Experience-Homeuser-Ranking" in the Real World, it looks like this for real.

 

For minimum experience, CV1 is required.

 

For good experience, Rift S is required.

 

For amazing experience, the HP Reverb is required.

Otherwise you don't know what you talking about and have to compare the Reverb again ,with your Rift S.

Yes a 1 Million Airforce FA/18 Simulator, is better than a Reverb and DCS, but the last is easy to achieve

And im still a Oculus Fan and hope for a CV2 with Reverb Display Resolution and Blackllevel.

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Thanks!!!

 

 

So, the colours in the reverb are that bad??

 

 

I've got a cv1 and I'm thinking about the reverb but a rift s or odysee + are also interesting.

 

 

It seems like the odysee + is no longer available in Europe? Why is that?

 

 

Some people say the rift s is no upgrade from the cv1 at all but others say it's a different world...... Very confusing.

 

 

Your reverb died just before I wanted to buy one! Are there more reverbs dying or are you just in bad luck??

 

 

Thanks for your update!!

 

 

Jozeff

The color is noticably better on the rift CV1, but thats an oled v lcd thing and all the newer headsets are LCD.

The issues im having were pretty common with the early batches. And I was one of the first guys in the states to get one, though who knows if it was a gen1 or the improved gen2 version. It did come with the "clip", though whichever EE thought that split cable design was a good idea should get a refund from his school.

Yes the CV1 has also the darkest Black.

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For me, the difference in price between the Rift S and the Reverb is not $200.

It's $3200.

Because I need to upgrade my computer to run it. If I had the hardware hefty enough to push the pixels, I would have stuck with the Reverb --- no doubt. But I could not stand the shuddering, ghosting, and borderline nausea inducing frames I was getting with the Reverb. So I stuck with the Rift S, that was delivering a relatively superb performance on admittedly ancient hardware, with little to complain of at the zoom ranges i was at 90% of the time (cockpit view and WVR and beyond).

If I am going to sink $3000 into a machine, I want it to run the next generation of GPU's and headsets. The 2080Ti can barely (and that, arguably, depending on subjective whims) run the Reverb adequately. If I already had sunken costs of a current gen CPU, 32-64GB with a 2080Ti, then sure, the Reverb would be the way to go. Right now, the Rift S gets me 90% of the way there (ON A 4-YEAR OLD MACHINE!!) for $400.

Like I said, the jump from CV1 to Rift S was like entering a new world. The jump from Rift S to Reverb? Not so much most of the time.

What do I mean by that?

I've previously reported on the my impressions of the resolution differences in detail, saying while one is clearly better (the Reverb), the difference was not that big a deal. After more experimentation, I realized that the issue is a little nuanced than that ...

At close viewing ranges (e.g., cockpit view) it's almost the same, so much so I could not really care whether I was looking through the Rift S or the Reverb. As moderate to far ranges (e.g., WVR/BFM distances and beyond), I don't know if there really is a difference to be considered. I can make out presence, identificaiton, aspect, etc. of the bandit with equal facility, and I really don't see how anyone can care about anything else of units (like aesthetics) at this range. Of course, the world and the landscape come at this range, and again, the differences if there are subtle enough not to fuss about.

The real differences between the Rift S and Reverb only become apparent to me at this weird intermdiate medium-short range --- principally when admiring the external view of models at the default zoom in F2. So, when I hit F2 and am viewing the bottom of the Tomcat in flight at the default zoom in external view, I instantly and easily could make out the text of the maintainer's name in the Reverb. With the Rift S, at that default view and zoom I knew there was some rank and names there, but needed to zoom one step closer to make it out. Ironically, at that one step closer zoom, while the Reverb remained crisper, again we are back to the situation where the Rift S is "close enough". So it is only at the medium-short zoom/ranges (closer than WVR/BFM but further than cockpit view) that the extra clarity of the Reverb makes a big difference.

One mistake Bearfoot, ... the Rift S does not get you 90% of the way there, ... it gets you ~ 96% of the way there. :)

:thumbup:

Frankly, if you spend 99% of the time in the cockpit looking out as I do (as opposed to F2 external views), then I would not argue with you if you told me that the Rift S gets you 99% of the way there!

Yes the CV1 has also the darkest Black.

Guess you haven't used the Samsung Odyssey+ then. That's the king in terms of vibrant colors - including dark black - thanks to its AMOLED displays. :thumbup:

(That's the one I'll go back to if my Reverb fails on me. The CV1 is just collecting dust in my closet).

So, Rift S or Reverb?

If you have a fast System Derek,definitely the Reverb. It's like a next generation HMD compared to the Rift S.

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Back to CV1 after using of Reverb?

It must hurt :D !!!

Had a CV1 for 2 years, now updated to the Rift S for the past 3 months.

Rift S is a massive upgrade from the CV1 in all aspects except audio.

There isn't a 'small' increase in resolution, it's night and day. All gauges are clearly visible in both DCS and IL-2.

Inside out tracking is great, glad to get away from sensors all over the shop.

Ok, can you read the gauges clearly in the rift s?

 

 

My cv1 is always shimmering and jagged lined and that's what annoys me the most.

Is that better in the rift s? I'm hesitant to buy the rift s because of the small increase in resolution compared to the rift cv1.

 

 

Thanks

 

 

Jozeff

Had a CV1 for 2 years, now updated to the Rift S for the past 3 months.

Rift S is a massive upgrade from the CV1 in all aspects except audio.

 

 

There isn't a 'small' increase in resolution, it's night and day. All gauges are clearly visible in both DCS and IL-2.

 

 

Inside out tracking is great, glad to get away from sensors all over the shop.

:thumbup:

That has been my experience as well.

I returned to CV1 after 3 days with Reverb. Could not stand poor tracking and small sweet spot. Have it already packed for return to HP.

Wow. Tracking is fine, turn on some loghts set it up right. Sweet spt, harder to deal with, check ipd, worst case get new lenses.

The only things that are better on the rift are colors and the fact ot "just works" right now for me. The reverb did work just fine for a few months ti be fair.

Back to CV1 after using of Reverb?

 

It must hurt :D !!!

It does. Thanks for your sympathy. Let me know your mailing adress so i can send you a special xmass gift. :D