Vietnam War - POLL

That... and an A-6 Intruder, and I could be Jake Grafton every night...

that oh-6 cayuse looks effin sexy...

FYI, with EDGE, the whole world can be made as one map, so there is basically no limitation to how big a map can be. I dont get how many people seems to have missed this beloved information...

 

But just becouse it is possible, dont expect ED or anyone to do it, but if you didnt know - Now you do. No limitations in map sizes.

Really? I certainly didn't know that. I'm assuming its still dependent on someone making the map though right?

Really? I certainly didn't know that. I'm assuming its still dependent on someone making the map though right?

Yes, someone would have to make it but I dont think we should expect it... But with this, we know that there wont any limitations with map sizes, and FYI the size of the map wont effect performance. Im not 100% sure about this with performance, but it makes sence as we today can adjust how long range of the map will be rendered from your view in the options, and Im sure thats how it will work with EDGE too... Sounds only logical.

And how I understand it, the maps that will come with DCS 2, will probably not be too large as it will be easier to find bugs and so on.. Consider these maps as a testbed, maybe.

That... and an A-6 Intruder, and I could be Jake Grafton every night...

Ya gotta love ole Jake, love the A-6 even more.

The HUn the F100D, one of my favourite fighters of the centuray series.

Would love to see this in game more than the f105, and just about as much as the f4E phantom.

It was still a usefull ground attack and close air support platform during Vietnam despite being in service among more advanced jets with radars. It has autopilot, capable of in flight refuels, cockpit panels similar to the f86( simple avionics, an easier transition from that aircraft), and would have been a interesting opponent vs Mig17s and Mig19s/J6s>

There was an F-100D Super sabre in development, 3d model just about finished , cockpit aspects being worked on, but the projects basically dead.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=109596&highlight=f100D

The HUn the F100D, one of my favourite fighters of the centuray series.

 

Would love to see this in game more than the f105, and just about as much as the f4E phantom.

 

It was still a usefull ground attack and close air support platform during Vietnam despite being in service among more advanced jets with radars. It has autopilot, capable of in flight refuels, cockpit panels similar to the f86( simple avionics, an easier transition from that aircraft), and would have been a interesting opponent vs Mig17s and Mig19s/J6s>

 

There was an F-100D Super sabre in development, 3d model just about finished , cockpit aspects being worked on, but the projects basically dead.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=109596&highlight=f100D

: Thumbup:

Just adding my .02 and preferences. Since we already have 2 of the major players in the Huey and Mig-21, in order I'd like to see:

- F-4E (dad flew these during his last tour to Ubon in '72, I grew up around them, and still am in contact with my father's squadron mates, who would gladly contribute their mission experiences up North, including Mig killers and those who were shot down)

- Mig-17 (from research, other than the 21, undoubtedly the major antagonist of the air war)

- Thud (WW missions and A-G element of strike packages)

Optional

- A-6 multi crewable with carrier

- Skyraider both land and carrier based

- Spooky (trail interdiction)

- Jolly Green

While the entire theater would be welcome, everything from Da Nang north would do nicely. That would also include Khe Sanh and the Ho Chi Minh trail if it were to extend west.

Found this interesting article about the F100

http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/f-100-super-sabre-flew-most-missions-in-vietnam/

F100 Super sabres starting arriving in vietnam 1964 and the last one didn't depart until 1971.

The f-100 Super sabre flew the most sorties of all us aircraft in the Vietnam war. It only did have 1 probable mig17 kill from its brief days of accompanying f105 strike missions into north Vietnam in 1965.

Again I find it interesting that a a plane ; the F-100D originally introduced in 1956(some were upgraded with An/Alq missile Approach warning receivers and other avionics during its later life) was still such as useful aircraft in vietnam a decade later, not to mention used to such an extent. It remained in US Air national guard service until 1979 and turkey supposedly still had these in service until 1986. That's really long service life for a plane that was not only Americas' but the worlds first combat supersonic production aircraft.

After the F-4E, I would really like to see the F-8E Crusader. That awesome plane was the Navy's primary dogfighter until the F-4B's and F-4J's arrived in number. It also had the highest kill ratio of any fighter in Vietnam.

Loaded question.

Just adding my .02 and preferences. Since we already have 2 of the major players in the Huey and Mig-21, in order I'd like to see:

 

Just wanted to point out that the Mig21"BIS" variant wasn't used by the north Vietnamese during the period of the Vietnam war.

 

these are the mig21 variants the North Vietnamese operated it seems.

 

https://books.google.ca/books?id=PpnEuoL6mUEC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=which+mig+21+variants+were+used+in+the+vietnam+war&source=bl&ots=hC30xauIq5&sig=Np2ffARH7T1kPZJO9592GnCdnNU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cbYHVducDLO1sASzz4C4CQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=which%20mig%2021%20variants%20were%20used%20in%20the%20vietnam%20war&f=false

 

BIS production runs first started in 1972 and lasted until 1985, which was about around the time Mig-23s started entering service in the USSR. however since its still a mig21 and 21BIS is still less sophisticated than the F4E in terms of avionics, I guess its still just about close enough to the period.

After the F-4E, I would really like to see the F-8E Crusader. That awesome plane was the Navy's primary dogfighter until the F-4B's and F-4J's arrived in number. It also had the highest kill ratio of any fighter in Vietnam.

Now you're talking,excellent aircraft,shot down more enemy aircraft than the F-4,a very underated aircraft IMO.

I'd buy the F-8 Crusader in an instant if made available.

I really hope we get a Vietnam theater. How hard would it be to take the mig-21bis and make a timeframe-accurate variant? Would making a mig-17 and mig-19 be made simpler by having the mig-15 already?

Come to think of it, Vietnam would be a bit unbalanced if it was down to air power in DCS. List of 'must-haves' for each side:

US and pals:

F-4 Phantom

F-105 Thunderchief

F-111 Aardvark

A-1 Skyraider

A-4 Skyhawk

A-6 Intruder

A-7 Corsair

F-8 Crusader

F-86 Sabre

Huey

AH-1 Cobra

CH-34 Choctaw

vs

North Vietnam:

Mig-15

Mig-17

Mig-19

Mig-21

Mil Mi-4

Mil Mi-8

Sim-level SA-2

You would have to REALLY flesh out combined arms and add an infantry component to compel people to play North Vietnam on multiplayer.

^ You forgot the OH-6 and the CH-47 ;)

Come to think of it, Vietnam would be a bit unbalanced if it was down to air power in DCS. List of 'must-haves' for each side:

 

US and pals:

F-4 Phantom

F-105 Thunderchief

F-111 Aardvark

A-1 Skyraider

A-4 Skyhawk

A-6 Intruder

A-7 Corsair

F-8 Crusader

F-86 Sabre

Huey

AH-1 Cobra

CH-34 Choctaw

 

vs

 

North Vietnam:

Mig-15

Mig-17

Mig-19

Mig-21

Mil Mi-4

Mil Mi-8

Sim-level SA-2

 

You would have to REALLY flesh out combined arms and add an infantry component to compel people to play North Vietnam on multiplayer.

ummm F86 sabre didn't see combat during the Vietnam War, nor the mig15, see combat against American aircraft in the war.

The very last F-86 units to be withdrawn from service were in 1965 ( only 3 squadrons operated them until 65), and they were air national guard squadrons. Reservists, never deployed to Vietnam.

both were already way outdated and already withdrawn from service.

I don't think north Vietnams really unbalanced. most of those planes in the US List Are Ground attack and strike Aircraft. Vietnam has less variation, but to say are underpowered and have no chance against us aircraft is an exaggeration.

the only jets that could really give migs trouble in air to air would be the Agile F8 crusader, or the F4 phantom.

Despite phantom lack of maneuverability compared to even the mig21 it did have incredible engine thrust, and advanced radar, avionics, and missile amount count.

f-105 - ill maneuverable mach 2 Bomb truck

f-111 - came late in 72 during linebacker 2 and was strike aircraft used mostly during night raids.

A1- Propellor attack aircraft.

A4- Subsonic light attack jet.

a6 - navy attack jet radar and all weather

a7 - based on the f8 airframe, subsonic attack jet.

F-100D super sabre (not on list) - Originally a Mach 1.4 2nd gen supersonic aircraft. Fighter - bomber. By the time Vietnam came around it only saw brief usage as fighter escort and for strike missions into north Vietnam. Was relegated for Close air support sorties in south Vietnam only for most of the war, until it started being replaced by the A7. Already outclassed by the F105, and evermore by the F4. nonetheless still important to the war.

I would like to see Vietnam map some time in the future. Me being the pessimist that I am I doubt that it will me very soon if ever. As for the list of aircraft above. :geek: I'd buy them all!:joystick::pilotfly:

"Historically" the only group of the time that could have matched the US of A was, you guessed it Mother Russia.

So to say the list is unbalanced is.... unfair? Its what the North Vietnamese had. They fought a low, dirty, and brutal guerrilla war! How the hell else are you going to beat a world superpower? I think the campaigns should consist of the US getting hammered by SAMs and "flak you can lay down on". With the general hit and run tactics the Vietnamese used in the air. Operations like "Bolo", maybe modified slightly, should definitely be included. The problem with historically accurate campaigns in my opinion is that people could get sensitive about certain areas.

That being said the list of aircraft would be awesome to have by say 2025:megalol::megalol::megalol:

I would like Vietnam, but it would be so lopsided. Not an issue for those who want to play SP or as Americans.

So I'd rather have more individual, modern planes (80s-current) along with new maps.

Don't forget the F5

;)

I wouldn't hesitate buying a module with a Viet Nam map in it. With the right mix of a/c, it could be a real hoot, both MP as well as SP. The "Lopsided" comment above is not very accurate when you look at the various missions that could be run on that map. Helicopter enthusiasts could fly their little hearts out with an AI ground battle raging while the fixed wing guys fly their ground attack missions. Assuming that a decent multiplayer carrier environment comes out with 2.0, the fight up North could very entertaining with Mig-17's, Mig-19's and Mig-21's flying against A-1's, A-4's, A-6's, A-7's, F-8's and F-4's. :pilotfly:

The F-105! Don't forget the Thud! It bore the brunt of the bombing in the earlier campaigns (i.e. Rolling Thunder). Forgetting it would be akin to forgetting the B-17s in the WW2 ETO.

the only jets that could really give migs trouble in air to air would be the Agile F8 crusader, or the F4 phantom.

Despite phantom lack of maneuverability compared to even the mig21 it did have incredible engine thrust, and advanced radar, avionics, and missile amount count.

 

f-105 - ill maneuverable mach 2 Bomb truck

That unfortunately is the conventional wisdom about the Thud. That said, if it weren't for the bad ROE, poor tactics and bad personnel policy (no involuntary second tours); they would have shot down more Migs than the 27.5 officially credited. Reading Have Doughnut report and F-105 Thunderchief Mig Killers of the Vietnam War was eye opening and changed my mind.

With out the bombs it was a surprisingly good aircraft down low and fast. Per 1F-105-1, a clean Thud at sea level with 60% fuel (includes a bomb bay tank) could sustain a 7.3 G turn at 17 degrees per second. The bay tank limits G to 7.33, a clean Thud, no tank at 60% fuel sustains 18 dps at 8 G and can do 19-20 dps at the 8.67 G aircraft limit. With 4 Aim-9B, a BB tank at 60% fuel sustain is 7 G for 16 dps and instantaneous is 7.33 for 17 dps.

Just for reference, an F-4E with two Sparrows, two Sidewinder and 50% fuel is a 7.5 G bird with 14 dps sustained and 17.5 dps instantaneous. During Rolling Thunder (65-68) the Phantoms were C's and D's which were about 2,000 pounds lighter and could do slightly better.

All that to say the F-105 in a DCS Vietnam map would be an awesome add!

Cheers

That unfortunately is the conventional wisdom about the Thud. That said, if it weren't for the bad ROE, poor tactics and bad personnel policy (no involuntary second tours); they would have shot down more Migs than the 27.5 officially credited. Reading Have Doughnut report and F-105 Thunderchief Mig Killers of the Vietnam War was eye opening and changed my mind.

 

With out the bombs it was a surprisingly good aircraft down low and fast. Per 1F-104D-1, a clean Thud at sea level with 60% fuel (includes a bomb bay tank) could sustain a 7.3 G turn at 17 degrees per second. The bay tank limits G to 7.33, a clean Thud, no tank at 60% fuel sustains 18 dps at 8 G and can do 19-20 dps at the 8.67 G aircraft limit. With 4 Aim-9B, a BB tank at 60% fuel sustain is 7 G for 16 dps and instantaneous is 7.33 for 17 dps.

 

Just for reference, an F-4E with two Sparrows, two Sidewinder and 50% fuel is a 7.5 G bird with 14 dps sustained and 17.5 dps instantaneous. During Rolling Thunder (65-68) the Phantoms were C's and D's which were about 2,000 pounds lighter and could do slightly better.

 

All that to say the F-105 in a DCS Vietnam map would be an awesome add!

 

Cheers

id still have my money on both mig17//21 in a horizontal manuver fight vs the f105.

f105 only did have guns and a heatseakers for self defense purposes.

even with better tactics it would really be misusing the thud since its not meant to dogfight or shoot down planes with missiles. the thud really was a bomber first & foremost, fighter second, only for self defence purposes if absolutely necessary.

only time f105 would be without bombs in vietnam theatre if it was RTB or if it jettisoned them.

I mean against mig17s thud pilots could have just kicked in full burner and easily gotten away from those things and rtb after mission, but of course every pilot wants to be an ace, even if it means misusing an aircraft.

so yes bad tactics and ego got some pilots killed, especially when thuds actually had escorts like the F4 operating.

aim9b' had a really poor hit rate, plus reliability issues.. I mean they are just plain bad. having used the gar8s, and Russian copy of it, the R3S missiles in DCS ( on the f86 and the Mig21 respectively), i honestly wouldn't count on those to save you, especially not in tight g turn dogfights

those are only reliable enough for relatively gentle turns or steady flying targets

ground clutter, sun, or even reflection from the sun is enough to give the missile issues with target tracking . firing too close , under 900/800 ish metres also has sometimes resulted gar8/r3s just passing by enemy targets.

the aim7e sparrows didnt have good success rates either in bvr.

which is why i think ealier generation manoeuvrable fighters going up against lesser manoeuvrable, and heavier fighters in planes built for missile combat with early missile tech, is still highly challenging and thus still hard-pressed in away against the likes the mig17/mig19. In the case of the mig21, that thing meant as a missile interceptor but was pretty light and nimble for its short delta wing design.

A Vietnam environment would be nice, but i'd rather have an F-4 Phantom II module first. That way the Mig-21 will finally meet its natural enemy. So I'd say modules first, then the map. Besides, there is plenty of tasty stuff currently in development. :bounce: