Learning to Fly Through M-2000C

Hi, I would like to buy the M-2000C but I have very little existing flight sim knowledge, so I have the following questions:

1: Do you think trying to learn this fighter from scratch would be too much for the average person?

2: Are the manual and any available training missions designed to be used by beginners, or is a significant amount of prior flight sim knowledge assumed?

3: On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being the FC3 Su-27 and 10 being the A-10C, how complex is the M-2000C?

If people are prepared to answer these questions I'd be grateful, and any additional information you think might help would be appreciated too.

Hi, the systems of the Mirage are more detailed than FC3 Du 27, but more simple than A-10C.

Flight model of the Mirage is easy to fly because of FBW. But the flight performances are being tuned right now. And the flight manual isn't complete yet.

However I don't think it would be written for someone completely new to flight sim.

Anything is possible, I don't know you or your level of knowledge about military aviation.

I think the FC3 F-15C would allow you to start and discover DCS for cheap (10$ in stand alone = without the whole FC3 bundle).

Then if you're still interested in the Mirage, start to train with AIM-7M and once proficient come back to Mirage. Also the F-15's systems are closer to the Mirage than the Su 27.

But I think starting fresh from 0 with Ka 50, A-10C or even Mirage 2000 (even if the Mirage has simple system compared to the 2 others, as it should be) would be a bit difficult.

PS: please guys, don't start again a rage debate over finished module or not. Thanks

Hi,

1: No, if you start small and go step by step it's doable.

2: The manual is a bit old but most of the info you need is inside, the training mission are very good IMO.

3: I would say 7 I think, there is not a lot to learn apart from the INS but this part is the easy one, the biggest part will be to learn the air-air tactics and procedures.

1: Do you think trying to learn this fighter from scratch would be too much for the average person?

No, but:

2: Are the manual and any available training missions designed to be used by beginners,

Définitely NO...

3: On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being the FC3 Su-27 and 10 being the A-10C, how complex is the M-2000C?

5... but with current manual... 35...

Hi, I would like to buy the M-2000C but I have very little existing flight sim knowledge, so I have the following questions:

 

1: Do you think trying to learn this fighter from scratch would be too much for the average person?

No, in some respects the availability of the HUD and auto-pilot make this easier to fly than a trainer like the L-39. The clickable cockpit mean that you need to remember battery switch is on the right panel, if you forget which switch - you read the panel labels before clicking. For FC3 aircraft, you'll need to learn RShift+L is to turn on the electrics, RCtrl+L is Nav lights, etc. if you forget or comeback later, no amount of looking around the cockpit will tell you (only the Esc, Controls setting menu). If you don't have a HOTAS, you'll map the radar targeting cursor to the arrow keys for both M-2000C and FC3 aircraft (Left hand for HOTAS becomes Left hand for keyboard).

Ideally, you will have tried and flown a couple of missions in the free Su-25T before making your purchase (to make sure DCS is what you expect) but IMHO it's not a absolute requirement.

2: Are the manual and any available training missions designed to be used by beginners, or is a significant amount of prior flight sim knowledge assumed?

There are a good number of training/campaign missions and they seem fairly straight forward. As the M-2000C simulation is fairly complete/accurate you'll still need to read the Manual, Chuck's Guide and watch youtube tutorials. As newbie, you should expect to make mistakes and for it to be a hard but even 'veterans' find that with a 'new' aircraft. IMHO if you are patient and take your time it shouldn't be an issue.

First thing I'll do with a new module is grab a set of Check Lists like these to help with startups, etc. or make my own if I find a better method, I also keep a pen and scrap pad near by for taking notes, writing co-ordinates, etc. while playing.

3: On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being the FC3 Su-27 and 10 being the A-10C, how complex is the M-2000C?

I'd give it 4, but it's hard to judge as it's easy to start off in but has depth with the modelled subsystems - TACAN, radar, etc.

Quick engine start.

• Battery switch ON
  
• Hand brake ON
  
• LP Fuel Cutoff switch CLOSED
  
• Starter button cover UP (starter fuel pump switch ON)
  
• PRESS Starter button (2 sec)
  
• @11% RPM move throttle to IDLE
  
• @ 49% RPM, Starter button cover CLOSED
  
• Starter Fuel pump OFF, LH RH Boost Pumps ON, Vent switch to vent
  

Only thing I've made a new player aware of is to use the ILS needles, rather than HUD localiser guide as the HUD depiction is bugged ATM.

The M-2000C module has a few minor issues but I find it pleasant to use and ideal for teaching radar and combat techniques.

I'd give it 4, but it's hard to judge as it's easy to start off in but has depth with the modelled subsystems - TACAN, radar, etc.

 

Quick engine start.

• Battery switch ON
  
• Hand brake ON
  
• LP Fuel Cutoff switch CLOSED
  
• Starter button cover UP (starter fuel pump switch ON)
  
• PRESS Starter button (2 sec)
  
• @11% RMP move throttle to IDLE
  
• @ 49% RPM, Starter button cover CLOSED
  
• Starter Fuel pump OFF, LH RH Boost Pumps ON, Vent switch to vent
  

 

Only thing I've made a new player aware of is to use the ILS needles, rather than HUD localiser guide as the HUD depiction is bugged ATM.

I wonder if engine start procedure is the most important while you can start from runway and no correct Magic lock and CCM procedure is explained... However, that have something funy to see that while in another topic, some are complaining that DCS (where the C stands for Combat) is not FSX :p

I re-started to play dcs 1 month ago and this was the bird i choosen.

m2kc is one of the easiest planes to fly at the moment.

Saying this i mean that rudders are nearly uneeded and the trim is inexistant, it has also nice autopilot.

I like the cockpit and the view plus instruments placement.

I love also red illumination.

The campaign is a must: i loved it, expecially the mission with the snakeyes (nooo spoiler...)

The major problems i found playing it are:

1) It flies like a brick below 200knots, and it is really dangerous around 150knts (takes forever to regain speed and lift). I think this is going to be fixed soon.

2) Dumb bomb usage are the worst i found on dcs: the aiming piper is really shit and you need to trow bombs more like "Luke...Use the force Luuuke!". This is the only plane on which i am better on ccrp bombing than on ccip. Note that to ccrp bomb i need to mark the tarrain like 30 meters before the real target position (i play with like 100--130 fps so i have no performance issues on my tests).

3) Radar unlocks too frequently. (Is this a bug? i dunno)

Anyway it is a nice bird to fly and going back i would buy it again. :thumbup:

May I suggest you learn to fly with the free Su-25T? Good training missions and a detailed flight modell. When you have the basics down, move on to the Mirage.

May I suggest you learn to fly with the free Su-25T? Good training missions and a detailed flight modell. When you have the basics down, move on to the Mirage.

When you tasted a clickable cockpit, I find it frustrating to go in a FC3 style aircraft, it might be the same for the OP. Maybe a trainer might be a better alternative considering this.

He didn't tested it since he is new to flight simulation.

But yes, the Su 25T would make a good free trainer. No need to spend 60$ on a trainer module IMHO :music_whistling:

Thank you all for your responses, they have been very helpful. I will do the first few missions of the Su-25T, and if all is going well I will transition to the M-2000C after that.

Thanks again :-)

This is a wise move :thumbup:

I wonder if engine start procedure is the most important while you can start from runway and no correct Magic lock and CCM procedure is explained... However, that have something funy to see that while in another topic, some are complaining that DCS (where the C stands for Combat) is not FSX :p

I gave the engine start as an example, to give the OP a 'feel' for it's 'complexity'.

The Su-25T would be

• Electrical Power ON (LShift+L)
  
• Both Engines START (LShift+Home) or
  
  • LH Engine START (LAlt+Home)
    
  • RH Engine START (LCtrl+Home)
    

For myself - if 'Startup and taxi' fits on

• 1/2 a sheet of A4 = 'easy' (key commands) ie. FC3
  
• 1 sheet of A4 = 'easy' (clickable cockpit) ie. L-39, M-2000C, Huey
  
• 2 sheets of A4 = 'hard' (need that check list if I haven't flown in a while) i.e. A-10C
  

I still smile at the time when, after spending more time in '3ds Max' than flying, and hot start test missions for 18 month (no time to waste on cold starts), I found I'd forgotten the F-16 cold start in BMS and had re-learn/memorise it again :lol:

I gave the engine start as an example, to give the OP a 'feel' for it's 'complexity'.

However, it is an optional complexity, like the INS programation... indeed the M2k module CAN be very complexe, if you do all what you can to complexify it, like manually entering ground target coordinate in the INS for example... but this is - fortunately - not required. ( But i know that for a good part of players, the complexity IS the fun )

Thank you all for your responses, they have been very helpful. I will do the first few missions of the Su-25T, and if all is going well I will transition to the M-2000C after that.

 

Thanks again :-)

Hey and welcome to DCS :)

I recommend learning the SU-25T (which Is the most complex of the FC3 type aircraft IMO) and buy a module like the Mirage 2000. The M2K was my first full fidelity jet module, and it taught me a lot and got me used to the high fidelity module. It is a great module that will give you something not to hard to learn on, but prepare you for the constant learning that goes on when you get the A-10C and KA-50 modules. It will also give you a competitive fighter on the majority of multiplayer servers. The M2K would be great for a beginner/intermediate because it can teach you about modern systems (such as radar, INS, ECM & a HUD), but not to the point where if you don't know everything about the specific system you are ineffective or cant use the module to its full potential. It also allows you to learn Air to Air & Air to Ground combat. Definitely buy it once you learn the SU-25T! Hope this helps

Hi,

It dépends on what you call "fly".... Personnaly I started with A10C but M2000C didn't exist.

Mirage is a FBW plane so for normal fly, M2000C is not very difficult compare to a spit for example or a L39. Those planes don't have electric or electronic systems to avoid (as possible) pilot errors.

As a delta plane, the problem is AOA when landing for example or the loss of speed when turning at limits.

A/A missiles are Fox 1 and Fox 2 so if bandit has Fox 3 (fire and forget radar missiles) or long range fox 2 that may be hard for you and you need a lot of practice to win ...

Because of its unfinished doc, it's difficult to have all informations to learn correctly. This is actually a real problem for a beginner.

As Jojo said, A10C is more complex (weapon and sensors) very interesting for A/G but not for A/A. M2000C offers the 2, even if A/G is less powerful (no pod for targetting) because M2000C is an interceptor first ;)

Hi, I would like to buy the M-2000C but I have very little existing flight sim knowledge, so I have the following questions:

 

1: Do you think trying to learn this fighter from scratch would be too much for the average person?

 

2: Are the manual and any available training missions designed to be used by beginners, or is a significant amount of prior flight sim knowledge assumed?

 

3: On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being the FC3 Su-27 and 10 being the A-10C, how complex is the M-2000C?

 

If people are prepared to answer these questions I'd be grateful, and any additional information you think might help would be appreciated too.

i really dont know if its possible to designe a simpler aircraft than the mirage, i mean come on guys all you need to do is master arm on and select the weapon you want to deploy. thats it. startup? 3 buttons +switching your radar on and the hud. its even simpler than fc3 aircraft where you have to know the keybinds. when someone would ask me what to fly when he has absolutly no idea from flying = mirage.

your point 3 = 0.5

i really dont know if its possible to designe a simpler aircraft than the mirage, i mean come on guys all you need to do is master arm on and select the weapon you want to deploy. thats it. startup? 3 buttons +switching your radar on and the hud. its even simpler than fc3 aircraft where you have to know the keybinds. when someone would ask me what to fly when he has absolutly no idea from flying = mirage.

 

your point 3 = 0.5

You can do it like that with any aircraft in DCS if you want to. I don't see the point of flying a simulator to "just" flip 3 switches and the HUD, which would just get you in the air with no nav and with a lot of lights on your warning panel. You can just do the same with any aircraft in DCS.

The efficient use of the INS, radar, bullseye and weapon systems is a bit (a lot !!) more than "master arm on and select the weapon you want to fire". I guess we don't fly the same way :).

You can do it like that with any aircraft in DCS if you want to. I don't see the point of flying a simulator to "just" flip 3 switches and the HUD, which would just get you in the air with no nav and with a lot of lights on your warning panel. You can just do the same with any aircraft in DCS

Interesting remark.. i don't see the point of flying an fighter jet simulator to "just" start engine, navigate, configuring an INS (which is usually configured by ground crew) and pushing a lot of switch and buttons :D

After all, it is not like this kind of aircraft was made to free the pilots from "non pertinent" tasks to let him concentrate to its mission and targets :D

Interesting remark.. i don't see the point of flying an fighter jet simulator to "just" start engine, navigate, configuring an INS (which is usually configured by ground crew) and pushing a lot of switch and buttons :D

 

After all, it is not like this kind of aircraft was made to free the pilots from "non pertinent" tasks to let him concentrate to its mission and targets :D

LOL... if we ever get the F-22 or F-35 simulated people will really complain about lack of switches and knobs and jet doing everything for them ;)

Interesting remark.. i don't see the point of flying an fighter jet simulator to "just" start engine, navigate, configuring an INS (which is usually configured by ground crew) and pushing a lot of switch and buttons :D

 

After all, it is not like this kind of aircraft was made to free the pilots from "non pertinent" tasks to let him concentrate to its mission and targets :D

Plane start-up, configuration and navigation are parts of flying a fighter aircraft. And yes all of this is done prior to the fence waypoint so the pilot can concentrate on the combat part.

I don't know what are you trying to say here but all thoses task are part of the mission, if you don't want to do them it's fine too but you can't say that this is not usefull or else.

BTW word comming from a real AdA pilot, all the INS stuff was done by the pilot, not the ground crew. The waypoints are inserted by the pilot via the panel or the cartrige and the alignment too, it's too important for it to be done by someone else.

Interesting remark.. i don't see the point of flying an fighter jet simulator to "just" start engine, navigate, configuring an INS (which is usually configured by ground crew) and pushing a lot of switch and buttons :D

 

After all, it is not like this kind of aircraft was made to free the pilots from "non pertinent" tasks to let him concentrate to its mission and targets :D

I don't know where people get the idea that the navigation system is set up by the ground crew ?

BTW word comming from a real AdA pilot, all the INS stuff was done by the pilot, not the ground crew. The waypoints are inserted by the pilot via the panel or the cartrige and the alignment too, it's too important for it to be done by someone else.

Indeed, if something is screwed up, the pilot can't blame anyone else but himself.

I don't know what are you trying to say here but all thoses task are part of the mission, if you don't want to do them it's fine too but you can't say that this is not usefull or else.

You said you don't see what stimulation Whaaw can found by simply pushing 3 switchs, then you explain how configuring INS, navigating and do lot of complexe things is way more stimulating... I try to explain you that you simply are not stimulated the same way than Whaaw (or me), and that you seem to completely avoid the "main" part of a "fighter" tasks: fighting...

That's a matter of taste, and... many other things i will don't discuss here because this is not a psychology nor sociology forum :D

The waypoints are inserted by the pilot via the panel or the cartrige

Who configure the cartige ? The pilot ?

I don't know where people get the idea that the navigation system is set up by the ground crew ?

Maybe because this is boring as hell... so we imagine a so boring thing is made by people that like to do boring things :p