The Phoenix should not be able to turn that well... - Page 6 - ED Forums
 


Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-13-2020, 12:06 PM   #51
TLTeo
Member
 
TLTeo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 826
Default

Honestly, from now on we should just spam Ironmike's meme in these threads.
TLTeo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2020, 10:52 AM   #52
Fri13
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 4,124
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by draconus View Post
Can't tell Eagle from QF-4... talks about AA missiles specs
Actually I could, didn't care because claim was that F-15 was the target, regardless used the F-4 drone as target sample.

When missile gets to your tea tail, your options to outmaneuver it is low. When you fly at high speed, your capability to outmaneuver fast missile becomes low, unless you can have so much speed that you can outmaneuver missile, like a SR-71 vs SA-2. Doing just a one degree course change and you avoid missiles by miles.
__________________
i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.
i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.
Fri13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2020, 10:55 AM   #53
Fri13
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 4,124
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo View Post
Ever hear of Sputnik News or RT ?
Keep the politic out this discussion, this is a technical matter.
Maybe you should then drop the politics, as you have clearly no understanding where we are taking about and about what.
Because someone mentions "red cape" it doesn't mean that it is a superman...

So keep out your sensitivity to politics.
__________________
i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.
i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.
Fri13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2020, 11:11 AM   #54
Fri13
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 4,124
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiskey11 View Post
Since you are being excessively pedantic, allow me to retort in the most pedantic way possible. What information is available on the chase aircraft?
My original question as well.


Quote:
You claim it's going Mach 2, but is it? Where is the flight data recording for it?
Didn't you go read the Navy page that lists all those data's? Launch altitudes, speeds etc?

Quote:
How do you know the camera isn't auto zooming while it tracks the missile? There are no references until it hits the drone, it could be zooming in (indicating that it isn't able to keep up at all).
So you know what a zooming makes for the image?
Where did I say that there ain't zooming at all?
Whether did I say there ain't radar tracking to the missile?
So you think that I believed that there is a pilot just holding camera and recoding it while flying at matching speed?

Quote:
I'm also not sure I'd call a tail chase an optimal scenario... The missile bleeds energy in a tail chase much faster due to the lower aspect ratio of the aircraft and has to cover more distance to get there. It's a forced pursuit intercept profile.
Now now... We are talking about Phoenix here, work very long burn time. But didn't you just say that missile is so fast that it can't be followed?

Slower missile is more agile. You can pull tighter turns and react more quickly.
One video above (that is recorded by WSO) you can see Phoenix goes crazy maneuvers, but again if target is flying anywhere near stable manner, why Phoenix goes zig-zag like it doesn't know where target is or where it should fly?

Point is, video from rear or front makes even large turns look small and fast.

Quote:
The AIM54 doesn't have a huge smoke plume by the time it reaches targets at 25 nmi... the motor only burns for 30s, and anything else is going to be condensation based contrailing.
30 seconds is a very long time to draw a big signal on the sky....

Quote:
Launching at 40nmi, I doubt you'd visibly see the contrail and the only way you'd know the missile was inbound was in the last 10nmi or so of flight when the active.
So you don't see the clouds at 40nmi range... Okay....
You do know that average people can see even a liner to contrail at much further distance than 40nmi, and that is when they don't even try to look at them...

And again, non-stupid pilot does start maneuvers when they get even a hint that enemy fighter has radar at your range and ready to launch. They don't wait that they get lock warning. Why TWS doesn't help shooter. It doesn't cost anything at long distance and high speed to perform few maneuvers to deny long range launches and make missile run its energy. Remember, you said that after 30 seconds Phoenix loses quickly it's energy....
__________________
i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.
i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.
Fri13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2020, 11:21 AM   #55
Noctrach
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 39
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
When missile gets to your tea tail, your options to outmaneuver it is low. When you fly at high speed, your capability to outmaneuver fast missile becomes low.
This is only true if we take the Big Book of BVR and throw concepts like MAR/Rtr and manoeuvres like the crank or split-S out of the window in favour of last minute break turn gambling.

No offense but I recommend studying how kinematic missile defence works, as it has nothing to do with your endgame turn potential. The missile is going to win that regardless, plus it involves actually visually picking up a small, extremely fast object far after the motor burnt out.

If the missile gets to your tail at a range where you can't defeat it kinematically anymore with a high speed snaking manoeuvre, you have already made some pretty humongous mistakes and willfully ignored all air-to-air doctrine from the last 30 years.
At this point your only option is to dive to the deck and try to break the radar lock, then manoeuvre to avoid the predictive search re-acquisition. This would probably work for SARH and SAM, but against an ARH you are most likely better off just ejecting.

Now of course none of this matters in DCS because the notch is laughably powerful and any missile can be decoyed with a lazy turn and some chaff.
This is a sim after all, not reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
And again, non-stupid pilot does start maneuvers when they get even a hint that enemy fighter has radar at your range and ready to launch. They don't wait that they get lock warning. Why TWS doesn't help shooter. It doesn't cost anything at long distance and high speed to perform few maneuvers to deny long range launches and make missile run its energy. Remember, you said that after 30 seconds Phoenix loses quickly it's energy...
Genuinely dude, out of nothing but friendliness and well-wishes. Educate yourself on BVR combat, this is not how any of this works. (Maybe look into APN guidance as well)

Last edited by Noctrach; 02-14-2020 at 11:29 AM.
Noctrach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2020, 12:26 PM   #56
jojo
Veteran
 
jojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: France
Posts: 3,872
Default

Anyway, this is pointless to discuss missile with this guy.
Any western technology is propaganda for him.

AIM-54 guidance has to be corrected, maybe in next patch ?

Kinematic seems in line with what we know of the missile.
It isn't unbeatable by any mean if you know what you are doing.
It was demonstrated even before module release (Jabber ?)
But yes, it puts you on the defensive, like it should.

So this is fine.

Finally "mother Russia" designed a replica of the Phoenix with R-33 + PESA radar in the MiG-31, still in service today.
So the concept is certainly not that bad.

__________________
Mirage fanatic !
I7 7700K/ MSI GTX 1080Ti Gaming X/ RAM 32 Go 2400 Hz/ SSD Samsung 850 EVO/ Saitek X-55 + MFG Crosswind + Rift S
Flickr gallery:
https://www.flickr.com/gp/71068385@N02/728Hbi

Last edited by jojo; 02-14-2020 at 12:34 PM.
jojo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2020, 07:32 PM   #57
DLEGION
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 165
Default

...aim54 due to notch+chaff spam+cobra deceleration (...in few words, a miracle), miss the target...but hey...turns 180 degrees and keep tracking (even from its back, i had radar lock coming from 9 then from 3 o'clock) and keeps following….luck at least it lost too much energy… but if it was nearer with engine still on it was another ending...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmA1VLLaMfc
DLEGION is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2020, 10:28 PM   #58
captain_dalan
Senior Member
 
captain_dalan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,042
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LastRifleRound View Post
If this were true how come he doesn't hit the earth at hyper sonic speed and burn up in the atmosphere? Kepler's law wouldn't indicate your conclusion at all.

What I'm getting at is I believe your "uncle" is propaganda. He's really an evil doppleganger. It is the only logical explanation. Beware, your family is in grave danger.
But, but ,but.....science! Buzz words! Kepler! ....oh who am i kidding, you are probably right!
captain_dalan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 08:30 AM   #59
umkhunto
Member
 
umkhunto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 256
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fri13 View Post
A Su-27S can perform a 360 turn at 12.7 seconds, faster than F-14 (that is again better than any other Western teen fighter) and even in tighter turn radius same time.
That Phoenix is so easily spotted as it has huge smoke trail coming after it, you can dance around it. In the final 7 seconds, Su-27S would turn and burn 180 degree to opposite direction that Phoenix was traveling. And there is no way that Phoenix would intercepted it in its blast radius
The F-16 can turn 360 in 13s. The S-300's missile is so easily spotted, since it is as big as an F-16, that it can dance around it. In the final few seconds before impact, the F-16 can turn 180 degrees in about 6 seconds. There is no way an S-300 could intercept an F-16. Do you see how silly that sounds? Every single argument that talks about the size of the AIM-54 being the disqualifying factor for its effectiveness, is exactly as dumb as what I just wrote there about the F-16, and what you wrote about the Flanker.


Your 30 tonne fighter, will never, not in until the heat death of the universe, out turn a weapon that weighs less than 500kg, while it has an energy advantage over you.

Last edited by umkhunto; 02-16-2020 at 08:36 AM.
umkhunto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2020, 01:32 PM   #60
captain_dalan
Senior Member
 
captain_dalan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,042
Default

Guys, just a check here......you do realize that when i missile is performing and intercept from outside your turn cycle, a tighter turn doesn't do you any favors if you are trying to evade it, right?
captain_dalan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:00 PM. vBulletin Skin by ForumMonkeys. Powered by vBulletin®.
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.