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Take Off in the Bf 109K-4


iFoxRomeo

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2 hours ago, Krez said:

Without a way to control yaw, I would be hard pressed to take off and land in the 109.
Does your flight stick have a twist at least?

 

Yes, I have an X-56. It's challenging to keep the stick all the way to the right, a bit forward AND full right rudder at the same time though.

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You can scratch the full aileron right input then. At the beginning of the takeoff roll it doesn't do anything, because there's simply not enough airflow, while later, before liftoff, only a little bit of it is needed.

i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10.

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4 hours ago, Elf1606688794 said:

Yes, I have an X-56. It's challenging to keep the stick all the way to the right, a bit forward AND full right rudder at the same time though.

Adjust your curves. I used 30 when I had a twist stick.
I set my trim to 1 for takeoff.
I would go full right rudder and ease off as I gained speed and rudder authority.
I would only use toe brakes if they were bound to an axis.
Stick full back and a little right.
Once you gain rudder authority, stay off of the breaks and ease off of the stick to neutral.
Use peripheral vision to try to maintain a straight line.
She will lift off without pulling back.


 

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  • 4 weeks later...

My take offs are coming along nicely, there is a lot less incidental combustion involved lately.

Tips in this thread and reddit, especially using the wheel brakes to compensate left/right, manual prop pitch and adjusting aileron trim, have helped a lot.

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  • 2 months later...

Hi all.

I've been reading through this thread trying to find a potential answer for the following problem I'm having. After take-off, the joystick center is shifted off-axis to the right. The stick shows correctly centered on the ground.  Has anyone else seen this behavior? If so, is this intended? This adds a very noticeable right roll as you can imagine. No other aircraft exhibits this behavior.

Thanks

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On the ground with engien off there is no air flow around control surfaces to affect them, once engine is on it pushes air and this air affects control surfaces, you can notice it on the ground if you increase engine speed it will gradually affect elevator and rudder with increase engine rpm, aileron isn't affected by prop stream but when you are in the air ailerons are effected by air flow as well and this is simulated.

If you ask me why only in bf-109 aileron is deflected by air stream in flight, i have no idea.

But fix is easy, go to special tab in main menu and set negative aileron trim and bf-109 will stop roll and stick will be centered in flight. I set mine to -27 but you can experiment and set value which fits you best.


Edited by grafspee

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

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Thanks. Let me elaborate to make sure we are talking about the same thing. The 'show controls' widget (the red boxes showing axes), the red cross marking joystick center, shifts to the right after takeoff. I understand the effects of torque and airstream causing the roll, what I don't understand if why the actual joystick center is being shifted. Is this an error, or was this an intentional effect to simulate the induced effects? I took the 109 from the ground to 30,000ft and the joystick center remained off-axis. If they were forcing the center to shift to emulate the forces at play I would have thought the center would drift during various maneuvers; e.g. left-rudder pushing the right wing causing it to lift works as expected but the joystick offset is permanent once off the ground and does not fluctuate.
All the other aircraft, older and new, don't do this. Is there something I'm missing here?  I can handle steering properly to maintain level flight, but having the joystick center forced off-center doesn't make any sense. I'm new to DCS World, though I bought the A-10A way back when and spent hours playing it. In the past few weeks I've picked up pretty much all the aircraft for DCSW. That's what is puzzling me, the other older aircraft have their quirks, the Spitfire is a bear, but the actual joystick center (the red cross) doesn't get offset once airborne.

I'd appreciate knowing if this is just the way they do things in their code, for their reasons, or is there a mod or fix I need to apply to correct this?  Adding a full time special tab aileron trim would seem to an odd way to address this, unless that's the fix for some code that deliberately moves stick center.  It makes sense in the AH64 for the trim handler that has the physical hardware.

If it's broken and that's just the way it is, ok. I've heard DCS World allows LUA scripting so I wonder if someone has found a fix for this externally. Guess I'll keep looking if that's the case.

Thanks for the info on the special tab though. I saw that and figured it was just for nulling out the normal torque, like the setting in MSFS, didn't figure it for anything else.

DCSW release version, not the beta.

Take care

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I just took off a few times and don't see any change in the controls settings. It shows centred on the ground and if I centre my stick after takeoff it is centred too. No obvious change as you describe at all.

I am on beta but I think they are the same now.

I have no trim settings set in special options. That was using the instant action takeoff mission.

AMD 5800X3D · MSI 4080 · Asus ROG Strix B550 Gaming  · HP Reverb Pro · 1Tb M.2 NVMe, 32Gb Corsair Vengence 3600MHz DDR4 · Windows 11 · Thrustmaster TPR Pedals · VIRPIL T-50CM3 Base, Alpha Prime R. VIRPIL VPC Rotor TCS Base. JetSeat

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I have this since forever. Funny that some ppl don't have this lol. After take off stick deflect to the right, and i can see that ailerons are deflected when i apply this trim in special tabs ailerons are straight in flight. And this has nothing common with torque. Torque can roll the plane but it won't deflect ailerons.


Edited by grafspee

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

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Just went into mission editor,picked Bf109, airborne. As soon as it starts and I activate the 'pilot controls' widget, the joystick center indicator (it's a diamond actually) is shifted to the right such that the left peak of the diamond is touching the red vertical axis.  I don't have any trim settings in the special. I also have the takeoff assist set on 0. I don't know what's causing it, but is consistent.

Quit back to M.E. and set it to 'take off from runway". Pulled up widget and the diamond is entirely centered.

thanks

addendum:

I watched the widget while going down runway (not worried about crashing plane). As airplane speeds up, the diamond slowly slides to the right until it stops as described above. Any ideas?

specifics: At 0 kph, joystick diamond centered. At 100kph, joystick diamond has shifted completely as described. Seems to start moving proportional to 0-100kph speed but then remains at 100+ kph

after slipping sideways on grass and ripping off left and right wings to ailerons, the diamond remains center regardless of speed. So it is tied to speed-ailerons somehow


Edited by quantum69
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@quantum69 all planes has small adjustment tabs which allow to zero flight controls, every plane coming from production line is a bit different, those small tabs allow to correct those small differences so every plane fly the same with in factory specifications. Apparently someone forgot to do this for ailerons in K-4 😛 

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

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3 hours ago, quantum69 said:

Just went into mission editor,picked Bf109, airborne. As soon as it starts and I activate the 'pilot controls' widget, the joystick center indicator (it's a diamond actually) is shifted to the right such that the left peak of the diamond is touching the red vertical axis.  I don't have any trim settings in the special. I also have the takeoff assist set on 0. I don't know what's causing it, but is consistent.

Quit back to M.E. and set it to 'take off from runway". Pulled up widget and the diamond is entirely centered.

I did manage to replicate that. I think I was looking for something a bit more severe but yes I get exactly how you describe, the left point of the diamond against the vertical bar in free flight, perfectly centred on the ground.

AMD 5800X3D · MSI 4080 · Asus ROG Strix B550 Gaming  · HP Reverb Pro · 1Tb M.2 NVMe, 32Gb Corsair Vengence 3600MHz DDR4 · Windows 11 · Thrustmaster TPR Pedals · VIRPIL T-50CM3 Base, Alpha Prime R. VIRPIL VPC Rotor TCS Base. JetSeat

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@quantum69 Keep in mind diamond symbol is supposed to show virtual stick position, not your physical one (at least in DCS  warbirds, I don't own any modern stuff to compate). Thus, as mentioned earlier, it's centered when there's no airflow from flight or propwash, but once either of these is present, it shifts according to airspeed and trim tabs settings. Granted, I don't know what's going on in 109, maybe it has aileron tabs pre-set to non-zero angle already even if special options say "0".

i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10.

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@Art-JI thought that as well, after ripping off wings down to ailerons and observing that the diamond stopped moving with speed. What's curious, is if this is reflecting down-up draft caused on ailerons due to slipstream effects then shouldn't it be impacted by attitude and airspeed in flight? 100kph and faster and it doesn't move. Climb,dive,airspeed; none seem to cause any further drift.

This offset seems a peculiar thing.  I use Warthog and assigned throttle slider to ROLL axis as well. Unfortunately there is no setting to make 2 axis additive, but I can 'trim' (using this term referring to offsetting the forced offset) the aircraft back to wings-level. Of course any movement of the joystick and that's the axis that takes control precedence. I was just testing to see if there was an easy way to circumvent this peculiarity.

I'm going back through the other WWII aircraft and see if this is happening and I only just noticed it in the Bf109.

thanks all

addendum:

testing all WWII aircraft results

Fw190 A-8 brakes on, aircraft stopped, increasing throttle = vertical diamond deflection. this seems to be localized to prop-wash only.

Fw190 D-9 brakes on, aircraft stopped, increasing throttle = vertical diamond deflection. this seems to be localized to prop-wash only

Bf109 K-4 brakes on, aircraft stopped, increasing throttle = no deflection.  horizontal diamond deflection with airspeed ~ 0-100kph

Spitfire LF MkIX brakes on, aircraft stopped, increasing throttle = no initial deflection. this is a unique condition. the diamond starts below the horizontal line, this is with elevator trim default position 0, so by default the elevator starts such that the top apex of the diamond touches the horizontal line, which is positive pitch. If you trim NOSE DOWN the diamond doesn't move, however, the NOSE DOWN trim does cause the diamond to deflect upwards from it's initial position as the throttle is increased. So this looks like prop-wash is affecting the elevator. Start a Spitfire hot on the runway, increase throttle = no deflection, add NOSE DOWN trim and increase throttle = vertical deflection. So however ED modeled the airflow is definitely taking place.

P-51D no apparent deflection as the above aircraft. Perhaps having trim on all the control surfaces negated this impact.

Using external view on the Spitfire with NOSE DOSE trim applied, you can see the trim tab is inclined from the elevator. Increasing thrust you can watch the elevator appropriately lower which reflects what's seen on the controls widget.

Take-away. The old WWII aircraft have some truly obscene behavior. With the exception of the P51, the rest seem to have an almost catastrophic desire to madly roll on take-off. The torque modeling in DCSW is unlike anything I've ever seen in a simulator. I've flown Cessna's in real life for my private license and none of those experiences translate to just how twisty these WWII planes can be. But the math doesn't lie if the matrices are correct.

Well done ED. All those other simulators must tweak the values so a player never experiences what an accurate mathematical model would do. I have to admit that they are a bear.

I prefer the SIM experience to the GAME setting experience. Otherwise it's just like every other sim I've played. It's still a bear and I'll stick to that assessment 🙂

take care all

 


Edited by quantum69
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