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Rocket effectivness


Neon67

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Is it not possible to do a quick fix to set the rocket correctly first, and then when ED more time has, fix the bombs aswell ?

Cause as already said, most aircraft in DCS rely on rockets against infantry, and for the moment gun or missile works better als rocket to take them down

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I don't know... sounds like "piss on my leg and call it rain".

 

Bummed by rockets but not yet a deal breaker. I'm still working aircrafts system proficiency...

I'm trying to find a way to use helicopters in a combat zone with infantry... I'm not talking about vehicles, if you actually manage to hit one with the rocket it dies. But try hitting a soldier with the rocket, right in the belly. You need a lot of luck or multiple tries. Just play A-10C instant action "eastern Georgia easy" the first on the list. Now kill the two trucks and infantry at waypoint 3 labeled patrol red smoke using only the rockets! Remember, it's an area effect weapon... piece of cake, as the targets are quite close together.

I like to see a vid or trackfile showing me how you do it with just the rockets.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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Is it possible that we're placing targets farther apart than realistically a platoon of infantry would be from one another in the mission editor?

 

I've never seen a group of infantry standing shoulder to shoulder or within 2 metres or so, they're always spread out because it takes effort to place them so close together.

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Is it not possible to do a quick fix to set the rocket correctly first, and then when ED more time has, fix the bombs aswell ?

Cause as already said, most aircraft in DCS rely on rockets against infantry, and for the moment gun or missile works better als rocket to take them down

 

Not necessarily.

 

I don't know exactly how the code works, but I would suspect that rockets and bombs call the same function(s). Fix one, break the other. Unless you do it over, redoing the relevant functions to account for all different types of weapons and their relevant effects.

 

Yes, you could fork out the functions(s) in question for a temporary "fix", but then later when you go through the code to do the whole thing properly you're stuck with tonnes of impromptu code to un-fix before you can proper-fix the real issue. And if the relevant coder has, for whatever reason, left the company when that happens, the new guy will be sitting there with a web of code that has no real logic to it because it's all just quick-fixes...

 

Basically, there's a lot of things in program design that are "easy" if you start with a clean slate, but way hard when you're working on an extant codebase. You need to be really careful what you do in those cases. (See for example the parable of Janes A-10 and the issues they had with various code because there was no structured design to it and "new guys" had to pick up code from people that had since left Janes.)

 

Basically: yes, this might be possible. But without having the code right in front of you, it is dangerous to assume that something is simple. When dealing with tens of thousands of lines of code - or, in the case of DCS, a couple million - even simple things can be difficult unless you approach it correctly.

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I'm trying to find a way to use helicopters in a combat zone with infantry... I'm not talking about vehicles, if you actually manage to hit one with the rocket it dies. But try hitting a soldier with the rocket, right in the belly.

 

As mentioned previously: in real-life, a rocket is not "a" weapon. When you have a rocket pod, you are not holding a Barret sniper/anti-materiel rifle. Under your hardpoint is an artillery battalion. Rockets are an area-effect weapon, you let loose salvoes the same way artillery doesn't fire just one shell (well, until the Swedish/American Excalibur). This is important in the definition of an area-effect weapon here: you are affecting the area, not any specific individual in it. Typically you will have been asked to suppress an enemy position - that is: "make them stop shoot" - either because they're threatening your mates, or because your mates want room to maneuver in order to get up close to their position.

 

Part of the problem in "proper" effect of rockets is that a big part of their job isn't necessarily to kill. It's the same as artillery: make that bad guy keep his head down; make him choose between firing his weapon and staying alive. That said, it would be absolutely awesome if we could have Close Combat-style morale behaviour of soldiers in DCS, complete with trenches, foxholes, ditches etcetera. (And imagine a Combined Arms that has Close Combat style trooper detail... oh mommah! :D )

 

Now kill the two trucks and infantry at waypoint 3 labeled patrol red smoke using only the rockets! Remember, it's an area effect weapon... piece of cake, as the targets are quite close together.

I like to see a vid or trackfile showing me how you do it with just the rockets.

 

I'll try to arrange that for you tomorrow, remind me otherwise. Rockets are actually what I usually use against those guys, to good effect. ;)


Edited by EtherealN

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Daniel "EtherealN" Agorander | Даниэль "эфирныйн" Агорандер

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There are two problems:

 

1) Frag damage is not modeled. We know this.

2) The ability of rockets to kill infantry is overestimated by the player most of the time. I've seen documents showing that rockets can be very ineffective at killing people (notice how you see videos of peeps being takes out with hellfires and guns ... as well as note that they're now making laser guided hydras).

3) We can't just extend 'blast radius' or add a 'simple frag radius' as this will result in things getting killed by weapons they shouldn't be killed by much more easily than they do now. In other words, fix one thing, break another. You can't just easily band-aid this one.

 

I'm trying to find a way to use helicopters in a combat zone with infantry... I'm not talking about vehicles, if you actually manage to hit one with the rocket it dies. But try hitting a soldier with the rocket, right in the belly. You need a lot of luck or multiple tries. Just play A-10C instant action "eastern Georgia easy" the first on the list. Now kill the two trucks and infantry at waypoint 3 labeled patrol red smoke using only the rockets! Remember, it's an area effect weapon... piece of cake, as the targets are quite close together.

I like to see a vid or trackfile showing me how you do it with just the rockets.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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I'm trying to find a way to use helicopters in a combat zone with infantry... I'm not talking about vehicles, if you actually manage to hit one with the rocket it dies. But try hitting a soldier with the rocket, right in the belly. You need a lot of luck or multiple tries. Just play A-10C instant action "eastern Georgia easy" the first on the list. Now kill the two trucks and infantry at waypoint 3 labeled patrol red smoke using only the rockets! Remember, it's an area effect weapon... piece of cake, as the targets are quite close together.

I like to see a vid or trackfile showing me how you do it with just the rockets.

 

 

You don't need to hit infantry with any rocket for them to die.

 

We get it, rockets probably should do more things, no one in the thread has come up with any technical documentation that say that indeed the rockets are actually under performing. But stop over dramatizing how it currently is, it's not gonna make it get corrected faster and only serves to spam the thread.


Edited by Irregular programming
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So you tell me, my issue is not importan, but for example to fix AMRAAMs and other Air-to-air missiles is? Well, then please ED don't waste your time on Air-to-Air weapons performance, for me it is useless. And thje missiles do hit planes from time to time...

 

See, I'm trying to make you aware, that for certain reasons/limitations, the rockets are a big blocking point to use helicopters in any other role as MEDEVAC. No more no less!

 

If, and only if, there is a quick and dirty way to "emulate" semi correct behaviour, it would be preferable to the current situation.

 

Just my oppinion, though.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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The other problem here is mission design. Objective: Kill 2 trucks and 3 infantry. If you get all but one soldier on your first pass the game considers this a failure. In real life it would be considered mission complete. You would never see an aircraft re-tasked to come in to take out a single soldier.

 

The same can be true. If a FOB is under attack by 4 squads and you roll in as CAS (fixedwing or rotarhead) the general mentality for simmers is, "I have to destroy all four squads." In truth if you talk out half of them you've probably done your job in real life.

 

My mission experience so far has been that almost every CAS mission against infantry is not Close Air Support but instead designed as Search and Destroy.

 

I don't disagree that there's room for improvement on rockets/damage models, but I do believe that most missions (and to an extent some players) are expecting them to be more of a magic bullet then they are truely intended to be in real life.

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The other problem here is mission design. Objective: Kill 2 trucks and 3 infantry. If you get all but one soldier on your first pass the game considers this a failure. In real life it would be considered mission complete. You would never see an aircraft re-tasked to come in to take out a single soldier.

 

The same can be true. If a FOB is under attack by 4 squads and you roll in as CAS (fixedwing or rotarhead) the general mentality for simmers is, "I have to destroy all four squads." In truth if you talk out half of them you've probably done your job in real life.

 

My mission experience so far has been that almost every CAS mission against infantry is not Close Air Support but instead designed as Search and Destroy.

 

I don't disagree that there's room for improvement on rockets/damage models, but I do believe that most missions (and to an extent some players) are expecting them to be more of a magic bullet then they are truely intended to be in real life.

 

 

Yes, but also there is a trigger to know if an enemy group is less than X % alive,instead of group is dead: it works great for vehicule group, however with infantry its quite buggy from my tests

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IIRC there was also a % damage trigger. You could actually set the percentage to a low percent of damage as being successful at disrupting infantry.

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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One could define a trigger zone action "GROUP ALIVE LESS THAN x%" and perform a GROUP AI OFF to totally shell-shock the group. Alternatively let it trigger a triggered action of the group, like ROF=HOLD

 

But, hrm, what about letting the group retreat/flee? For that, some LUA is necessary as there is no ME action "SET NEXT WAYPOINT" or some such for ground unit ...

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I realize that the it can be set for %'s. My point was, that in my experience, missions require you to kill all the infantry. Having a script is great, it doesn't do any good if it doesn't get used resulting in pilots focusing on individual soldiers with rockets rather than groups of infantry.

 

:)

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I realize that the it can be set for %'s. My point was, that in my experience, missions require you to kill all the infantry. Having a script is great, it doesn't do any good if it doesn't get used resulting in pilots focusing on individual soldiers with rockets rather than groups of infantry.

 

:)

 

Would be useful with a Arma2/3 AI script feature, so you can put up different behaviours if one or more get shot.

Like going from Aware to Combat mode, faster run speed, at least next 5-10 min. And stance to crouch or prone. With a timeout, if it just was a random strafe from a nearby huey, so they cool down to normal.


Edited by Buzpilot

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IIRC there was also a % damage trigger. You could actually set the percentage to a low percent of damage as being successful at disrupting infantry.

Then why are all stock missions requiring a GROUP DEAD condition? E.g. Huey campaign mission, even the A-10C "easy" instant action?

 

Well, I know there are certain possibilities, in scripts and triggers. Still a newcomer might simply won't realize that it is just his task to "correct" all the missions manually to compensate for the rockets inability to make him succeed his mission.

 

Many people I know would stop wasting time trying to win the mission after let's say 20+ tries. They will never know it wasn't there fault or inability... quite frustating, I guess.:(

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

Win 10 | i5 10600K@4.1GHz | 64GB | GeForce RTX 3090 - Asus VG34VQL1B  | TrackIR5 | Simshaker & Jetseat | VIRPIL CM 50 Stick & Throttle | VPC Rotor TCS Plus/Apache64 Grip | MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals | WW Top Gun MIP | a hand made AHCP | 2x Elgato StreamDeck (Buttons galore)

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Fair enough, I'll put in a request to change those in official missions and we will see what happens.

 

Well, I know there are certain possibilities, in scripts and triggers. Still a newcomer might simply won't realize that it is just his task to "correct" all the missions manually to compensate for the rockets inability to make him succeed his mission.

 

Many people I know would stop wasting time trying to win the mission after let's say 20+ tries. They will never know it wasn't there fault or inability... quite frustating, I guess.:(

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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