jaguara5 Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 Have you guys flown a bfm fight against a mirage 2000? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummingbird Posted September 16, 2020 Author Share Posted September 16, 2020 Well so the limited AOA should not be a big issue if the Typhoon pilot manages to avoid slow flight?Then having a good speed sustainment seems an advantage to me in this aspect as if both planes are at very slow speed (for example vs an Hornet) in a guns-only situation (no iris-t and no aim-9x) the Typhoon could have serious troubles...did i get the picture? Well it might not even be a problem at low speeds, where Gero mentions the Typhoon will still eat the Hornet. Reason for that is that a lower wing loading also requires a lower AoA to generate the same amount of lift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirusAM Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 Well it might not even be a problem at low speeds, where Gero mentions the Typhoon will still eat the Hornet. Reason for that is that a lower wing loading also requires a lower AoA to generate the same amount of lift. Fair but still the Hornet can point its nose (guns) where the Typhoon cannot at these speed. So my point is better to avoid the adversary (few) advantages and try to not get slow. And yes I know the ef2000 has thrust to spare and can easily accelerate...but still there are other good fighters out there (rafale, su35, f22) which won’t forgive a Typhoon pilot mistake (and viceversa). R7-5800X3D 64GB RTX-4090 LG-38GN950 Meta Quest 3 VPForce Rhino FFB, Virpil F-14 (VFX) Grip, F-15EX Throttle, MFG Crosswinds v3, Razer Tartarus V2 SpeedMaster Flight Seat, JetSeat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Expert Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 about the F18 Like True Grit have said, they'll do their best to get it as accurate as possible, engineering it from the data they can get and airshow performance/public sims and so on, and then use their large experience with the real thing to get it to feel right. Just wait and see, its a while out anyways, once you gotta put some money down, I'm sure we'll know much more about the flight model. I don't know if it is also written down in this forum but Wags(ED) himself told so in one of the (Fighter Pilot Podcast?) interviews he did. So yeah, it is officially admitted that parts of FM/systems/wepaons are altered from RL performance/capabilitys. Edit: hah, Etirion has it even with a timestamp :thumbup: Interesting. Wags was referring to the polar charts. I believe that in the end it's a complaint not much on what the hornet can do aerodynamically but on how it can perform from the point of view of the maneuvering computer. If it were to be only from the aerodynamic perspective it would not make sense because as I said before it's possible to use reverse engineering, so i don't think so, but if this were to be the case ED should specify it in big letters. This is because a 1:1 reproduction is feasible if allowed, contrary to what "someone" here on the forum said, so it would be necessary to specify when it is known at least for when regarding the fm, what is 1:1 and what no, as FM is often advertised as a 1:1 copy of cards.... all the weapons envelopes, ranges and data, radar function and data, ECM stuff, flight models, target pods and so on are not the real ones... Yes: Sorry to shatter your dreams. I too wish DCS would be 100% accurate (maybe except the dying part). It's not possible unfortunately. I'm talking about the FM. It's obvious that weapons, avionics, ecm etc ... cannot be disclosed if classified. It's not so obvious for the FM. As far as I am concerned the important thing is that it's credible from the arodynamic and physical point of view, for what concerns the FLCS is another matter, but,i repeat, if the censorship were to be relevant to the point that the things doesn't match even using formulas, charts, CFDs and other stuffs, then it is not good and they have to specify it otherwise they are peddling a 1:1 FM equal to the cards when it is not. However, I am waiting for an official response from the TrueGrit as some users on the forum say that the sensations of the pilots and not the cards are important, in spite of the "realistic flight simulation" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etirion Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 This is what TITS (TrueGrit2) had to say to someone asking a similar question: The EM diagramms are classified, but it will be very very very close to them. So, we will present the BFM-Beast, the Typhoon really is ;) https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4449308#post4449308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummingbird Posted September 16, 2020 Author Share Posted September 16, 2020 Fair but still the Hornet can point its nose (guns) where the Typhoon cannot at these speed. So my point is better to avoid the adversary (few) advantages and try to not get slow. And yes I know the ef2000 has thrust to spare and can easily accelerate...but still there are other good fighters out there (rafale, su35, f22) which won’t forgive a Typhoon pilot mistake (and viceversa). My point was that what the EF lacks in available AoA, it makes up for in actual lift to push the nose around, due to the low wing loading. It's the same reason the M2000 is also so dangerous in a slow speed scissors vs a Hornet, despite having only about half the AoA available - the low wing loading allows it the extra rate to make up for the lack of AoA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernbear Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 (edited) Wait a sec, let me understand. The data are classified and that is why it clearly cannot be distributed to the public, but in the end it will be legally possible to create the exact FM of the Eurofighter in the sim or will it be modified to protect classified data? If this is the case, this module should no longer be considered as a study level sim, and consequently, in addition to reporting the fact, a lower price should be applied. U know ED was using Limiter information from NASA for the Viper for the longest time right? because of that the thing kicks in at 5gs and its only since a friend of mine gave them the proper documents are they going to change it. The FMs of these planes are as correct as the Typhoon is going to be to their IRL versions Edited September 16, 2020 by Southernbear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UrgentSiesta Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 Many thanks for the info - so much the better to get it straight from a person with your experience! I never really knew that much about Typhoon or Raptor (both after my service time), and didn't really care about Typhoon until hearing more about it from you and your team. Previously, my most eagerly awaited DCS "dream plane" was the upcoming F-15E, and I never even bother ed wishing for a Raptor. Now that I'm learning about Typhoon, it seems like I might just have a new favorite aircraft. Thanks for all you've done in your career, and also for bringing just a small taste of the fun part to the rest of us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph21 Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 didn't really care about Typhoon until hearing more about it from you and your team Same here. I've been reading a lot about it since it has been announced and i am discovering a lot of great capabilities and features. Also very confident in the high fidelity of the product with all the Typhoon knowledge available in TG team, and partnership they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiGon Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 I'm talking about the FM. in the link I provided you... Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unknown Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 Hey QuiGon and Expert(or anyone else) could you please continue your conversation via PM or open a new thread in the ChitChat section of the forum if you feel the need to discuss this OT topic any further? The OT question came up, there were many answers(including from me, so i'm at fault too) but let us not derail this thread any further, please. :beer: Modules: KA-50, A-10C, FC3, UH-1H, MI-8MTV2, CA, MIG-21bis, FW-190D9, Bf-109K4, F-86F, MIG-15bis, M-2000C, SA342 Gazelle, AJS-37 Viggen, F/A-18C, F-14, C-101, FW-190A8, F-16C, F-5E, JF-17, SC, Mi-24P Hind, AH-64D Apache, Mirage F1 System: Win 11 Pro 64bit, Ryzen 3800X, 32gb RAM DDR4-3200, PowerColor Radeon RX 6900XT Red Devil ,1 x Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB NVMe, 2 x Samsung SSD 2TB + 1TB SATA, MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals - VIRPIL T-50CM and VIRPIL MongoosT-50 Throttle - HP Reverg G2, using only the latest Open Beta, DCS settings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummingbird Posted September 17, 2020 Author Share Posted September 17, 2020 Hey QuiGon and Expert(or anyone else) could you please continue your conversation via PM or open a new thread in the ChitChat section of the forum if you feel the need to discuss this OT topic any further? The OT question came up, there were many answers(including from me, so i'm at fault too) but let us not derail this thread any further, please. :beer: ^+1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDpilot Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 (edited) Well it might not even be a problem at low speeds, where Gero mentions the Typhoon will still eat the Hornet. Reason for that is that a lower wing loading also requires a lower AoA to generate the same amount of lift. And what´s the reason for EF´s higher required landing AoA? Edited September 17, 2020 by HDpilot hardware to fly around the world now У авторов РЛЭ уж точно данные продувок в распоряжении были Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbrz Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 And what´s the reason for EF´s higher required landing AoA? The lack of flaps. i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbrz Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 The F-16 is a very capable weapon system in all respects! Of course there are „thousands“ of variations flying around. If you are strictly focussing on WVR („Dog Fight“) engagements, some aspects on the more modern variants are not helping. The engines got bigger and bigger, the stuff they put in and on the airframe got more and more, but what remained is a pretty small wing area that has to deliver the lift. That's why the pilots who have flown both, the A and the C (usually) agree that the A is the better dogfighter. i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi41000 Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 i hope this question can be answered but who knows gero you mention the poor f-16 25 year old pilot being exhausted after 3 sets of bfm (not sure what HiAA is though, high angles & aspect?) since the eurofighter uses a entirely different type of g suit were you not exhausted too? or does a liquid g suit have less exhaustion after pulling many g's constantly overall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirusAM Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 Eurofighter relative flight performance, feat. Gero Finke U know ED was using Limiter information from NASA for the Viper for the longest time right? because of that the thing kicks in at 5gs and its only since a friend of mine gave them the proper documents are they going to change it. The FMs of these planes are as correct as the Typhoon is going to be to their IRL versions I think some approximate value is normal R7-5800X3D 64GB RTX-4090 LG-38GN950 Meta Quest 3 VPForce Rhino FFB, Virpil F-14 (VFX) Grip, F-15EX Throttle, MFG Crosswinds v3, Razer Tartarus V2 SpeedMaster Flight Seat, JetSeat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirusAM Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 My point was that what the EF lacks in available AoA, it makes up for in actual lift to push the nose around, due to the low wing loading. It's the same reason the M2000 is also so dangerous in a slow speed scissors vs a Hornet, despite having only about half the AoA available - the low wing loading allows it the extra rate to make up for the lack of AoA. Thanks that makes a lot of sense. R7-5800X3D 64GB RTX-4090 LG-38GN950 Meta Quest 3 VPForce Rhino FFB, Virpil F-14 (VFX) Grip, F-15EX Throttle, MFG Crosswinds v3, Razer Tartarus V2 SpeedMaster Flight Seat, JetSeat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueGritLead Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 i hope this question can be answered but who knows gero you mention the poor f-16 25 year old pilot being exhausted after 3 sets of bfm (not sure what HiAA is though, high angles & aspect?) since the eurofighter uses a entirely different type of g suit were you not exhausted too? or does a liquid g suit have less exhaustion after pulling many g's constantly overall? HiAA= Hi Aspect Angle meaning you start the setup „neutral“ in a head on pass with no advantage for either side (at least if both maneuver correctly after the „fight is on“ call). Of course I was also working hard - but I could still smile! :) The liquid suit was called „Libelle“, but it lost out in a second campaign against the „normal“ air pressured system. I was the last that flew with the Libelle until it was shut down and removed from inventory many years ago. I liked it very much, especially for the fact that it produce zero arm pain or hematoma and did not need to pressure the lungs like the standard one. So overall a much „healthier“ system. But in centrifuge trials we had some blackouts by pilots wearing it, so it was deemed to be to dangerous and not reliable enough. 1 _______________________________ Gero Finke Founder TrueGrit Virtual Technologies [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDpilot Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 The lack of flaps. Not only hardware to fly around the world now У авторов РЛЭ уж точно данные продувок в распоряжении были Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbrz Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 Since you apparently know the answer, what's the reason? i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueGritLead Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 The Eurofighter Typhoon has an automatic Flap/Slat and trim system. Landing AoA is depending on weight of the a/c and configuration restrictions (i.e. ground clearences of stores) _______________________________ Gero Finke Founder TrueGrit Virtual Technologies [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Worg Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 I sincerely hope that your Eurofighter will have air / ground capability. Even at a minimum, GBU 12 - 16 and laser designation pod I would already be very happy. Good luck in any case for the work. :Pouce en l'air: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiGon Posted September 18, 2020 Share Posted September 18, 2020 I sincerely hope that your Eurofighter will have air / ground capability. Even at a minimum, GBU 12 - 16 and laser designation pod I would already be very happy. Good luck in any case for the work. :Pouce en l'air: It will definitely be able to do gun strafes at least :D Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hummingbird Posted September 18, 2020 Author Share Posted September 18, 2020 And what´s the reason for EF´s higher required landing AoA? Compared with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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