Fight for Honor - A Folds of Honor Charity Event

Nobody spoke about "widely accepted practice.", but it happened and who did it was the most important pilot in F14 history, don't forget it.

Have you intentionally ignored previous conversation regarding Capt Snodgrass? You are conveniently ignoring context of this very conversation. I am noticing a trend, or an attempt in moving the goal posts.

... this is becoming quit painful. "Chess with a pigeon " i think it has been called.

Example: you know you can barely, if at all, move your head greator than 8Gs?

I did not, but I did wonder about it. very cool little tidbit! If you're looking back around the head rest do you need to recenter before you pull the stick or risk tendon/muscle damage? Is this one of those things you just learn to do and don't really think about it during the doing?

The last head I picked up (it was still inside a motorcycle helmet, but not attached to the torso) weighed, maybe, 10, 15 pounds? Call it 80 or 90 pounds at 8G? I'm impressed you can move it at 7g!

You guys must have neck muscles of steel.

Have you intentionally ignored previous conversation regarding Capt Snodgrass? You are conveniently ignoring context of this very conversation. I am noticing a trend, or an attempt in moving the goal posts.

 

... this is becoming quit painful. "Chess with a pigeon " i think it has been called.

No, i didn't ignore anything. Simply i don't agree with you because of those Snodgrass words: Well, I, like I say, I’ve been pretty successful against eagles in my time. Um, but at to answer actually truthfully if you look at, if you look at a like an [inaudible] straight up at 14 a versus an f 15 clean, no, no, no big tanks in rails on and those kinds of things. The F 15 is a, has a, is a higher performing aeroplane, but it all comes down to an end game and all this stuff. It all comes down to the pilot and the f 14 you could, as I mentioned before, you can configure it certain ways and all of a sudden it turns into another animal. So when I fought really quality pilots in those kinds of aeroplanes and I configured my aeroplane in the prohibited configuration, I generally wound up, I could present an aeroplane that was superior to theirs in the slow speed environment.

We live in clown world. This thread is merely one example.

Btw I drew the SHORTEST STRAW possible and flew against sungho round 1. I died quick lol, but it was fun regardless. Sungho seems like a really nice guy and had fun chatting with him. Good luck to everyone advancing to next weekend.

Hopefully these rule-enforced tournaments (even without huge prizes) occur more often. I'm not super interested in "air quake" multiplayer but the controlled environment of the tournament was nice.

Nobody spoke about "widely accepted practice.", but it happened and who did it was the most important pilot in F14 history, don't forget it.

Your fanboying over this guy is a little excessive. He is not the best nor only Tomcat pilot to fly that jet.

I had a similar positive experience , went out in round 2 it was good fun... nice chaps to fly against lots of laughter and a brilliant cause

I bought his answer at first. But now just blanket statement that no fighter pilot has over g'd a jet. Like really?? In 1991 the f15 pilot that pulled 12 g's in a split s manuever. Like do you think I'm pulling these instances out of my ass?

Who said no fighter pilot has over-G'd a jet?

You are anchoring on one example as if it proves anything. And you're arguing with three people who have flown fighters for a living.

I did not, but I did wonder about it. very cool little tidbit! If you're looking back around the head rest do you need to recenter before you pull the stick or risk tendon/muscle damage? Is this one of those things you just learn to do and don't really think about it during the doing?

 

 

 

The last head I picked up (it was still inside a motorcycle helmet, but not attached to the torso) weighed, maybe, 10, 15 pounds? Call it 80 or 90 pounds at 8G? I'm impressed you can move it at 7g!

 

 

You guys must have neck muscles of steel.

... ug. That sounds gruesome.

There are lots of techniques of how to anchor your head on the head box before G on set. Every pilot i know that flew pointy nose planes developed some neck problems in their careers. During defensive BFM looking over my left shoulder pulling Gs trying to make the adversary over shoot, my head slipped off the corner of the headbox and folded backwards, I herniated two disks in my neck. Didn't realize it untill i noticed my left hand pinkey and ring finger were numb from a pinched nerve.

Your fanboying over this guy is a little excessive. He is not the best nor only Tomcat pilot to fly that jet.

One question: how many pilots do you know have flown the same fighter jet in the last 50 years more then 26 years and more then 4800 hours?

I like Snodgrass but i'm not the fanboy of anybody, as said, i think Snodgrass knows F14 better then F16 or F18 pilots.

I'm a cnc machinist. I just love it when engineers expect me to do things that will break my tools or machine because they don't take 5 minutes to consider how their ideas are supposed to work in the real world where maintenance and structural tolerances exist. They are definitely the cool guys in my field. I really look up to them /s.

Snark aside, I wanted to ask if we can get a report of which jets were flown so far? I'm interested in seeing what everyone else was using.

Who said no fighter pilot has over-G'd a jet?

 

You are anchoring on one example as if it proves anything. And you're arguing with three people who have flown fighters for a living.

I think it was when you guys said, never would happen. Or a fighter pilot would not do that. I get it you guys fly the jet according to the natops manual. 99.99 percent of the time you don't over g the jet. Have a good day fighter pilots.

No, i didn't ignore anything. Simply i don't agree with you because of those Snodgrass words: Well, I, like I say, I’ve been pretty successful against eagles in my time. Um, but at to answer actually truthfully if you look at, if you look at a like an [inaudible] straight up at 14 a versus an f 15 clean, no, no, no big tanks in rails on and those kinds of things. The F 15 is a, has a, is a higher performing aeroplane, but it all comes down to an end game and all this stuff. It all comes down to the pilot and the f 14 you could, as I mentioned before, you can configure it certain ways and all of a sudden it turns into another animal. So when I fought really quality pilots in those kinds of aeroplanes and I configured my aeroplane in the prohibited configuration, I generally wound up, I could present an aeroplane that was superior to theirs in the slow speed environment.

Ok.... in an effort to conclude this sh!t show ....

Remember you have argued many things so far. You have argued for over Ging , pulling circuit brakers, arriving at the merg with barely enough gas for a single set, some times in the context of a real fight during war sometimes in the context of training, basically that every video that you have watched with Snodgrass telling stories of unique instances, with seemingly complete disregard for the context of those unique instances, you have demonstrated that his videos should be viewed as all encompassing universally applied and unquestionably ubiquitous concepts with only your perspective as context. And in this last message you are using a single statement from a single person, who is your token "argument from authority" pilot, and reference the f15 as a representative of all fighters.

So your conclusion from all your youtubing is what exactly? And how does it relate to Movers charity event exactly? Spell it out please because i am throughly bamboozled by all the BS. Just A few sentences please.

I think it was when you guys said, never would happen. Or a fighter pilot would not do that. I get it you guys fly the jet according to the natops manual. 99.99 percent of the time you don't over g the jet. Have a good day fighter pilots.

Intentionally over-G'ing the aircraft is not a valid tactic.

No one said over-gs don't happen.

F/A-18s and F-16s can and have been over-G'd also, btw.

Intentionally over-G'ing the aircraft is not a valid tactic.

 

No one said over-gs don't happen.

 

F/A-18s and F-16s can and have been over-G'd also, btw.

So then we agree. Have a good day Mover

Intentionally over-G'ing the aircraft is not a valid tactic.

 

No one said over-gs don't happen.

 

F/A-18s and F-16s can and have been over-G'd also, btw.

And no one on here said it happens every single time. The jet would be grounded more than in the air. The miscommunication was that it has happened vs happens all the time.

And no one on here said it happens every single time. The jet would be grounded more than in the air. The miscommunication was that it has happened vs happens all the time.

You are leaving out some very important nuances. It was not frequency of the over Gs that was in question, you argued that if a pilot was presented with the decision of over Ging the aircraft for a shot, to do so was acceptable.

You are leaving out some very important nuances. It was not frequency of the over Gs that was in question, you argued that if a pilot was presented with the decision of over Ging the aircraft for a shot, to do so was acceptable.

And don't put the little nuance of 'acceptable' in there. No one used that word. I provided an instance of a guy in combat doing exactly that. Over g'ing the jet to get on the guys 6. Now what?

... the nuance of the frequency of an over G is being conflated with intentional over G. You have moved the goal posts.

I think it is safe to say mover is not in agreement with you here ...

Well no one on here is going to tell me that if the real life pilot has a

guy in his sights. He is going to not pull that 1 extra g to get the kill. Hey real life pilot why didn't you shoot that guy. Well I couldn't you know g limits and all. Lol, **** outa here. That pilot is going to pull that bitch and shoot.

By his response here ....

Intentionally over-G'ing the aircraft is not a valid tactic.

 

No one said over-gs don't happen.

 

F/A-18s and F-16s can and have been over-G'd also, btw.

... the nuance of the frequency of an over G is being conflated with intentional over G. You have moved the goal posts.

 

 

 

I think it is safe to say mover is not in agreement with you here ...

 

 

 

By his response here ....

I was being nice trying to end this. You guys went from no fighter WOULD ever do that. To no one said they haven't over g'd a jet. And I'm like, ummm that was my comment from the get go. That it has happened. And quite a few times.

:thumbup:

And no one on here said it happens every single time. The jet would be grounded more than in the air. The miscommunication was that it has happened vs happens all the time.

Your thesis statement was that a “real pilot” would over G to get a gunshot.

That is false. No one said jets aren’t over G’d. It happens.

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, just hoping learn something here - The F-14 was discontinued in part due to maintenance cost.

Is it possible that in an effort to win BFM training engagements the pilots who were like Snodgrass contributed to an entire fleet of airframes being discontinued?

I don't know for certain there. Just asking a question. But it goes to one of the points the pilots are trying to make: A dogfight isn't a one and done engagement, it is part of a larger picture of an entire battlefield and theatre where logistics matter. And a 1:1 k/d ratio where you kill the opponent but your jet is in maintenance for a month and you the pilot are in rehab for over-g related medical issues is not something to train for.

If the state of your aircraft and your person doesn't matter when the engagement was over, you would be a japanese kamikaze pilot from ww2. But since that's untenable, you train to win efficiently so that your jet isn't broken when you land and your body still works too.

So if the real fighter pilots don't over-g when training for real life combat, and the real fighter pilots are saying that in the vast majority of cases in a real fight you wouldn't even attempt to over-g because you'd be flying incorrectly to begin with, then maybe we should acknolwedge the awesome piece of luck we have at getting so much first-hand info from the real deal so we can improve how we play this sim.

I'm thankful for the knowledge and now I understand more why certain tactics are used.

Your thesis statement was that a “real pilot” would over G to get a gunshot.

 

That is false. No one said jets aren’t over G’d. It happens.

To take a shot. Missile/ guns whichever. And Captain Craig Mole Underhill did exactly that pulling 12 g's in a split s manuerver. And killed the mig 29.

Your thesis statement was that a “real pilot” would over G to get a gunshot.

 

That is false. No one said jets aren’t over G’d. It happens.

And you're correct fighter pilots have over g'd there jet. To get a kill in combat.

Just Say to Mover, ED and Moltar and all the Staff Tnx for and awasome event for a worthty cause bringing the DCS community on it . Made an old eagle here happy again ! Tnx guys