Puma Posted November 8, 2018 Share Posted November 8, 2018 Im looking to make my mission card building process just a little more realistic, so trying to calculate refusual speeds, etc. To do this, Im using the charts from the A-10A flight manual. However, as we know the dcs A-10 engines are under powered vs real life. Which leads to my question: has anyone encountered adjusted performance charts from actual dcs data? Custom Pit 476 Recruiting i9-12900KF, 32 GB DDR5, Gigabyte Aorus Z690 Master, Gigabyte RTX 2080 Ti, 1TB Sabrent Roket 4+ 2x750GB RAID-0, TrackIR 5 /w clip, CRG9 49” Curved Ultrawide Flight Display+15" Touchscreen+17" Gauges display, Thrustmaster Warthog+7.5cm, Saitek Pro Combat Pedals, Streamdeck, Butt Kicker and pneumatic G-Seat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil73805 Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 However, as we know the dcs A-10 engines are under powered vs real life. As someone new to DCS and the A10C, I didn't know that the DCS A10C's engines were underpowered vs. reality. That explains a lot! It didn't seem right. Cruising speed of 300kts? I wish, only in a dive! How come they haven't fixed that? How hard can that be? Windows 10 64bit, Intel Core i5 8600K CPU @ 3.6GHz, 32GB DDR4 2400MHz RAM, Nvidia GeForce GTX 1060 6GB. 500GB SSD (Exclusively for DCS World), Thrustmaster Warthog, Logitech G Saitek Pro Rudder Pedals. Track IR 5 with Pro Clip. Vaicom Pro. EASA PPL(A), Glider Aerobatics. Modules: A-10C, F/A-18C, F-5E, Mirage 2000C, AV-8B N/A, Yak 52, Flaming Cliffs 3, Heatblur F14B/A, UH-1H Huey, SA342 Gazelle and all but one of the warbirds. Caucuses, Persian Gulf, NTTR, Normandy, Channel and Syria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Posted November 9, 2018 Share Posted November 9, 2018 As someone new to DCS and the A10C, I didn't know that the DCS A10C's engines were underpowered vs. reality. That explains a lot! It didn't seem right. Cruising speed of 300kts? I wish, only in a dive! While the engines do seem a little under powered, it's not as bad as you may think. Cruising @ 31,000 ft, M 0.52 = 180 KIAS = 300 KTAS Your TAS can be found on the CDU position page and then using RLSK 1 to toggle between IAS/TAS/GS Tested using a 'clean' A-10C, Persian Gulf map, DCS Open Beta 2.5.3.23788 i9 9900K @4.7GHz, 64GB DDR4, RTX4070 12GB, 1+2TB NVMe, 6+4TB HD, 4+1TB SSD, Winwing Orion 2 F-15EX Throttle + F-16EX Stick, TPR Pedals, TIR5, Win 10 Pro x64, 1920X1080 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitormouraa Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Im looking to make my mission card building process just a little more realistic, so trying to calculate refusual speeds, etc. To do this, Im using the charts from the A-10A flight manual. However, as we know the dcs A-10 engines are under powered vs real life. Which leads to my question: has anyone encountered adjusted performance charts from actual dcs data? One question, how do you know the TF34s in DCS are underpowered? SplashOneGaming Discord https://splashonegaming.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_sukebe Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 I’ve read that the engines are considered under powered in reality, and assumed that DCS was simply reflecting that. System: 9700, 64GB DDR4, 2070S, NVME2, Rift S, Jetseat, Thrustmaster F18 grip, VPC T50 stick base and throttle, CH Throttle, MFG crosswinds, custom button box, Logitech G502 and Marble mouse. Server: i5 2500@3.9Ghz, 1080, 24GB DDR3, SSD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msalama Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 How come they haven't fixed that? How hard can that be? Hard? Read and learn: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=171682 https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2864178&postcount=41 But basically, no-one has produced any tangible evidence supporting the change, so of course they haven't changed anything either. Very simple, not hard at all ;) The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil73805 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Hard? Read and learn: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=171682 https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2864178&postcount=41 But basically, no-one has produced any tangible evidence supporting the change, so of course they haven't changed anything either. Very simple, not hard at all ;) That's excellent! Thank you msalama! Windows 10 64bit, Intel Core i5 8600K CPU @ 3.6GHz, 32GB DDR4 2400MHz RAM, Nvidia GeForce GTX 1060 6GB. 500GB SSD (Exclusively for DCS World), Thrustmaster Warthog, Logitech G Saitek Pro Rudder Pedals. Track IR 5 with Pro Clip. Vaicom Pro. EASA PPL(A), Glider Aerobatics. Modules: A-10C, F/A-18C, F-5E, Mirage 2000C, AV-8B N/A, Yak 52, Flaming Cliffs 3, Heatblur F14B/A, UH-1H Huey, SA342 Gazelle and all but one of the warbirds. Caucuses, Persian Gulf, NTTR, Normandy, Channel and Syria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil73805 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 While the engines do seem a little under powered, it's not as bad as you may think. Cruising @ 31,000 ft, M 0.52 = 180 KIAS = 300 KTAS Your TAS can be found on the CDU position page and then using RLSK 1 to toggle between IAS/TAS/GS Tested using a 'clean' A-10C, Persian Gulf map, DCS Open Beta 2.5.3.23788 This is pure gold! I did wonder about TAS but didn't know enough (yet!) about the aircraft systems to find out. Thanks Ramsay! Windows 10 64bit, Intel Core i5 8600K CPU @ 3.6GHz, 32GB DDR4 2400MHz RAM, Nvidia GeForce GTX 1060 6GB. 500GB SSD (Exclusively for DCS World), Thrustmaster Warthog, Logitech G Saitek Pro Rudder Pedals. Track IR 5 with Pro Clip. Vaicom Pro. EASA PPL(A), Glider Aerobatics. Modules: A-10C, F/A-18C, F-5E, Mirage 2000C, AV-8B N/A, Yak 52, Flaming Cliffs 3, Heatblur F14B/A, UH-1H Huey, SA342 Gazelle and all but one of the warbirds. Caucuses, Persian Gulf, NTTR, Normandy, Channel and Syria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puma Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 I look forward to doing some tests myself vs the A-10a realworld charts. I confess I do not have evidence that the engines are underpowered. This was spmething I read early on and it “felt right” so I havent questioned it since. Sorry about enforcing the rumours! Custom Pit 476 Recruiting i9-12900KF, 32 GB DDR5, Gigabyte Aorus Z690 Master, Gigabyte RTX 2080 Ti, 1TB Sabrent Roket 4+ 2x750GB RAID-0, TrackIR 5 /w clip, CRG9 49” Curved Ultrawide Flight Display+15" Touchscreen+17" Gauges display, Thrustmaster Warthog+7.5cm, Saitek Pro Combat Pedals, Streamdeck, Butt Kicker and pneumatic G-Seat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puma Posted November 17, 2018 Author Share Posted November 17, 2018 So I bounced this discussion off a pilot friend and he offered a possible explanation. This is just a theory, and Im curious for opinions. Im not trying to make any one or thing look bad; purely academic. Ive been pondering how aircraft engine power could be so predictable, when all other engines I encounter (car lawnmower, etc) exhibit power changes over time. Short term before filter changes etc, and long term overall decline as well. Obviously aircraft are maintained much more frequently and thoroughly than a car, but the principal must still be in play. So that lead to questioning what end of the performance variance the charts capture. For safety, I’m told they capture the guaranteed minimum. So as long as the maintenance schedule is kept, the performance is guaranteed to be at least whatever is shown on the charts. Presumably then real world you often fly with power to spare, which could be use to exceed the charts. It seems very conceivable to me that ED built the flight and performance models to the charts, so we experience the worst possible case not the real world typical peeformance. Thoughts? Custom Pit 476 Recruiting i9-12900KF, 32 GB DDR5, Gigabyte Aorus Z690 Master, Gigabyte RTX 2080 Ti, 1TB Sabrent Roket 4+ 2x750GB RAID-0, TrackIR 5 /w clip, CRG9 49” Curved Ultrawide Flight Display+15" Touchscreen+17" Gauges display, Thrustmaster Warthog+7.5cm, Saitek Pro Combat Pedals, Streamdeck, Butt Kicker and pneumatic G-Seat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitormouraa Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 It seems very conceivable to me that ED built the flight and performance models to the charts, so we experience the worst possible case not the real world typical peeformance. Thoughts? Actually, we are not. According to Yo-Yo, in terms of thrust, we always have a brand new engine/aircraft when we jump into the cockpit of the aircraft, another detail that might be somewhat related to this is that back in 2009~ during the (sim) development, the Charlie model was still a "new" thing, although it was initially tested 4 years before. So I'm assuming our cockpit in the game also looks brand new because of the fact that the new Charlie cockpit was also "brand new" back when the DCS: A-10C was being developed, hence the lack of weathered cockpit (I'm not saying this has anything to do with thrust - just saying that this collaborates with the "brand new" argument I used). Back to the thrust, yes, the engines are supposed to perform like a brand new engine, which means the compressor efficiency is as good as it gets (or as it should...), turbine tip clearance is good, no dramatic changes in geometry etc... So in order to do an affirmation like that, you must at least prove that the performance is the "worst possible"... SplashOneGaming Discord https://splashonegaming.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David OC Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 (edited) A jet engine is able to adjust and allow for air density using rpm and ITT, like a governor. So brand new or not it should adjust, otherwise it could be a little hairy going off the performance charts on a short runway takeoff.:cry: Once an engine gets to it's set limits, it's overhaul time, so it can make it's rated thrust / match performance charts, these charts would also allow for that "Average" Yo-Yo talks about. Checkout these two post with full documents to see how the DCS A-10 was modeled off if your interested. It's an average of 100 tests. Also, many loadout the A-10 with way to many weapons, you don't see that in most of the photo's. She is a pig when you max fuel and weapons. Fuel and Air Relationships NASA So that lead to questioning what end of the performance variance the charts capture. For safety, I’m told they capture the guaranteed minimum. So as long as the maintenance schedule is kept, the performance is guaranteed to be at least whatever is shown on the charts. Presumably then real world you often fly with power to spare, which could be use to exceed the charts. It seems very conceivable to me that ED built the flight and performance models to the charts, so we experience the worst possible case not the real world typical performance. ED doesn't model (script) the FM to match anything. Each part is modeled in real time, including the engines at altitude and temperature. If anything anywhere is slightly out 0.001 with the engines thrust or FM, it would magnify and show up in one of the many test you can do to see if it matches the many many A-10 charts. Quote "We break the aircraft down into sub-elements (including breaking the rotor blades/propeller blades/wings/stabilizers into sub-elements like the root, mid-section, trailing edge) and apply physics equations to each element in real time to determine the forces and moments acting on it at any point in time." Great post, one of my favorites :) It's better to think of DCS as one big simulated wind tunnel. It's why it's so taxing on our pc's + Nice graphics. It's also why the aircraft feel so dynamic and fun to fly. Edited November 18, 2018 by David OC 1 i7-7700K OC @ 5Ghz | ASUS IX Hero MB | ASUS GTX 1080 Ti STRIX | 32GB Corsair 3000Mhz | Corsair H100i V2 Radiator | Samsung 960 EVO M.2 NVMe 500G SSD | Samsung 850 EVO 500G SSD | Corsair HX850i Platinum 850W | Oculus Rift | ASUS PG278Q 27-inch, 2560 x 1440, G-SYNC, 144Hz, 1ms | VKB Gunfighter Pro Chuck's DCS Tutorial Library Download PDF Tutorial guides to help get up to speed with aircraft quickly and also great for taking a good look at the aircraft available for DCS before purchasing. Link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puma Posted November 18, 2018 Author Share Posted November 18, 2018 @DavidOC Thats one of the best responses Ive ever seen on these forums. Fascinating and super relevant links. Im fascinated by the depth of the modelling (the whole sum of components part), which honestly makes me even more impressed with DCS. My biggest take away is the one that real world A-10s had variance in their ITT performance. Seems obvious they would, so my initial expectation that a chart worked like a calculator is not right. They provide safe estimates but always have some wiggle room. All evidence seems to indicate the DCS models are well within the wiggle room. Good job all, thanks for the input. Custom Pit 476 Recruiting i9-12900KF, 32 GB DDR5, Gigabyte Aorus Z690 Master, Gigabyte RTX 2080 Ti, 1TB Sabrent Roket 4+ 2x750GB RAID-0, TrackIR 5 /w clip, CRG9 49” Curved Ultrawide Flight Display+15" Touchscreen+17" Gauges display, Thrustmaster Warthog+7.5cm, Saitek Pro Combat Pedals, Streamdeck, Butt Kicker and pneumatic G-Seat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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