F-5E Vs. MiG 21 GRUDGE MATCH ROUND 1 AAR/Debrief

They're a topic of controversy because the way DCS implements them isn't perfect, but also because they make a huge part of the game easier and a lot of people equate difficulty with realism.

Don't disagree with the idea behind imposters but I do disagree with what you say here and how ED have implemented it. Equating difficulty with realism is not the case, its pretty obvious that seeing something from 40km away and homing in on it to silently attack it is pretty much well beyond realism, saying it isn't perfect is a huge understatement as it takes away the point of using radar or GCI to gain situational awareness which for air to air combat is the key factor for success as well as removing any defensive and co-ordination aspect such as notching and tactics.

Don't disagree with the idea behind imposters but I do disagree with what you say here and how ED have implemented it. Equating difficulty with realism is not the case, its pretty obvious that seeing something from 40km away and homing in on it to silently attack it is pretty much well beyond realism, saying it isn't perfect is a huge understatement as it takes away the point of using radar or GCI to gain situational awareness which for air to air combat is the key factor for success as well as removing any defensive and co-ordination aspect such as notching and tactics.

I was trying to be diplomatic, the implementation has some really serious issues. But if I have to pick a side I'd rather be able to see targets at 40km vs. not being able to see anything at 5km, because one is basically unplayable. And aside from the extreme range, there's nothing unrealistic about that scenario. In all forms of combat the side that can achieve surprise has a decisive advantage.

Also, that's a bit of an exaggeration, because seeing a dot on the horizon doesn't give you speed, range, altitude, aspect, or identity of the target. In the F-5 vs Mig-21 grudge match where you only have two main groups of combatants who know generally where to look, yeah, you can tell pretty quickly where the enemy is, but that's a product of the scenario. In a 40-player server like blue flag that dot could be anything. That's what radar and IFF is for.

I'm not going to debate it here, there are obviously pros and cons for both and I don't believe there is a right choice.

Have they been modified? What setting were they at, Large? I recall playing on Dogs of War WWII server and those were obvious...

War Thunder sim mode is actually doing this pretty well. You can see the dot from a good distance, but IF you zoom in you can't until it's close range.

so the whole thing with using icons to spot things at greater ranges than what would otherwise be realistic is kinda moot, since on computer screens we're entirely limited by pixel density and screen quality as well as monocular vision.... it's not realistic anyway...

if everyone has the same, it doesn't give anyone an advantage, so whatever setting you like... well that's my opinion... personally i'd just leave them off...

Honestly, small impostors are pretty reasonable in my opinion. You certainly can't see them at long range but they do help spotting at WVR ranges.

Suggestion for future matches:

1.) No AWACS/GCI but impostors on

2.) Mixture of air frames: mirage 2k + f-5 vs. Mig-21 + Mig-29 or korean war jets mixed in with mig-21and f-5

3.) Matches on Nevada terrain

Couple of things I noticed from Team Tiger:

1.) Drop tanks: considering the short distances between airbases, why were they used on the F-5s? I haven't flown the F-5 yet so I don't know what the fuel consumption is like. With hindsught, would it have been better to go lighter with less fuel for better maneuverability and acceleration?

2.) Noticed quite a few tiger pilots forgot to jettison drop tanks

prior to combat

3.) Why did team tiger elect to not use the mountainous terrains to the east? Ramsey also noticed that during the stream.

Thank you to all the participants for one of the most eagerly anticipated matchups.

We elected to have centerline tanks, and on two sorties in particular I'm glad we did. Fuel ran low. As for jettisoning them, was that team-wide? I for sure jettisoned my tanks before battle, wondering if there is a bug in syncing the jettison.

As for the mountains, it wasn't discussed in the minimal brief. We were starting the aircraft and developing strategy at the same time. After the first encounter was a disaster it felt as though we lost sight of any strategy and succumbed to extreme pressure to get in the air. In hindsight we should have used the terrain and resist the urge to let the match devolve into a strung out line of F-5s headed towards the enemy...

Suggestion for future matches:

 

1.) No AWACS/GCI but impostors on

2.) Mixture of air frames: mirage 2k + f-5 vs. Mig-21 + Mig-29 or korean war jets mixed in with mig-21and f-5

3.) Matches on Nevada terrain

 

Couple of things I noticed from Team Tiger:

 

1.) Drop tanks: considering the short distances between airbases, why were they used on the F-5s? I haven't flown the F-5 yet so I don't know what the fuel consumption is like. With hindsught, would it have been better to go lighter with less fuel for better maneuverability and acceleration?

2.) Noticed quite a few tiger pilots forgot to jettison drop tanks

prior to combat

3.) Why did team tiger elect to not use the mountainous terrains to the east? Ramsey also noticed that during the stream.

 

Thank you to all the participants for one of the most eagerly anticipated matchups.

From the broadcasters perspective I think the F-5s needed those tanks due to being on the burner a lot, but failing to jettison them was definitely a mistake, probably due to the newness of the airframe.

I didn't mention tactical terrain considerations in the brief because I wanted to leave that to the Captains to exploit should they take it into consideration and I had to avoid coming across as playing to one airframe or the other. Team Tiger flew great but having been monitoring both channels I must be frank and say Team Fishbed began planning and holding extensive tactical discussion the second they entered their private channel, whereas I did prod Team Tiger just a bit by reminding them they could use the time before the match to plan. I think this further played out to Fishbed's advantage

I agree Team Tiger should utilize mountain terrain to their advantage in the future and avoid the open flat areas that play to the Fishbed's superior climb performance and speed, but again the fog of war made things hectic and Team Fishbed was running some great teamwork. Zooker provided some good insight from Team Tiger above

Went pretty much as I had expected, and I don't believe it will become much better once the F-5 updates hit and the F-5 loses a lot of attainable load factor.

All the more reason we need the F-4 Phantom in this game fast! :D

Thanks for the insight Zooker and Ramsey. I missed the 1st 15 minutes of the stream so I may have missed the big picture. Team Tiger flew very well considering how new the module is on top of it being a full fidelity DCS module with a steep learning curve.

I didn't expect an outcome too different from Sunday. Besides the energy advantage of the Mig-21, the 51st guys are aliens when it comes to teamwork and the Mig 21 module has been around for a while for people to get really familiar with.

Went pretty much as I had expected, and I don't believe it will become much better once the F-5 updates hit and the F-5 loses a lot of attainable load factor.

 

All the more reason we need the F-4 Phantom in this game fast! :D

OR use the F-5 the way the North Vietnamese uses their Mig-21s. Hit and run, ambushes, or drag the energy fighter into furballs :D

How ironic that would be.

OR use the F-5 the way the North Vietnamese uses their Mig-21s. Hit and run, ambushes, or drag the energy fighter into furballs :D

 

How ironic that would be.

Problem is that the MiG-21 is a lot faster, so that tactic wouldn't work for an F-5 against the MiG-21 as you can't actually run away from them :-P

Only thing you can hope for in an F-5 is that the MiG-21 decides to attempt a turning match at medium to low speeds, but no good MiG pilot will likely do that.

The F-4 & MiG-21 however are very closely matched pretty much everywhere except for sensors.

Went pretty much as I had expected, and I don't believe it will become much better once the F-5 updates hit and the F-5 loses a lot of attainable load factor.

 

All the more reason we need the F-4 Phantom in this game fast! :D

If the aircraft had been reversed the outcome would have been the same. This matches outcome had little to do with airframes- Fishbed used very good tactics and that mattered most at the end, Team Tiger seemed to agree with that. I suspect Team Tiger will make a much stronger and more prepared showing in Round 2.

Team Tiger seemed to agree with that. I suspect Team Tiger will make a much stronger and more prepared showing in Round 2.

The team Fishbed had great tactics for sure, I'm trying to study their tactics, and RL F-5 tactics. Hopefully we will be more prepared to the round 2.

As already mentioned above, speed is a problem to the Tiger.

The team Fishbed had great tactics for sure, I'm trying to study their tactics, and RL F-5 tactics. Hopefully we will be more prepared to the round 2.

 

As already mentioned above, speed is a problem to the Tiger.

No offense intended to Team Tiger as there were good pilots on both Teams, Fishbed just came together as a unit. Speed is a big challenge for the Tiger, totally agree with that, but I wager Tiger will find a way use that superior handling next time around :)

Is there a Tacview we can review?

Is there a Tacview we can review?

Yes- nearly done going through it, I was just checking it for accuracy against the broadcast and j haven't going any major issues- I'll be putting it up in the first page today

Nothing new to add.

Teamplay won the round for red, and as I see it, Tigers must never fight alone and preferably only 2vs1.

The MiG can engage and disengage at will, which was nicely done during the match, so being on your own in a F-5, should mean certain death.

Looking forward to round two, where I hopefully will be able to participate. :)

Tacview is up on first page!

Broadcast and highlight reel is coming

Nothing new to add.

Teamplay won the round for red, and as I see it, Tigers must never fight alone and preferably only 2vs1.

The MiG can engage and disengage at will, which was nicely done during the match, so being on your own in a F-5, should mean certain death.

Looking forward to round two, where I hopefully will be able to participate. :)

Yep, that's the problem - the F-5 simply lacks the speed & climbing ability to be a real match for the MiG-21 in a 1 vs 1 situation. Infact when everything is modelled correctly I predict the MiG-21 will win 8 or 9 times out of 10 in any 1 vs 1 with the F-5E (providing roughly equal pilots ofcourse), and losing in the MiG will basically come down to trying to turn fight with the F-5 or overshooting it and recieving an AIM-9 up the tailpipe..

But with good teamplay everything is possible though, esp. with missiles loaded, so for that reason the above doesn't mean you can't have a blast pitting these two birds up against each other, esp. when it's in teams. I'm certainly looking forward to giving it a try on both teams.

Yep, that's the problem - the F-5 simply lacks the speed & climbing ability to be a real match for the MiG-21 in a 1 vs 1 situation. Infact when everything is modelled correctly I predict the MiG-21 will win 8 or 9 times out of 10 in any 1 vs 1 with the F-5E (providing roughly equal pilots ofcourse), and losing in the MiG will basically come down to trying to turn fight with the F-5 or overshooting it and recieving an AIM-9 up the tailpipe..

 

But with good teamplay everything is possible though, esp. with missiles loaded, so for that reason the above doesn't mean you can't have a blast pitting these two birds up against each other, esp. when it's in teams. I'm certainly looking forward to giving it a try on both teams.

In my personal flying experience with the F-5 online this is not the case so far- I actually generally find the F-5 to be easier to score kills with, but the MiG rewarding when flown right. The F-5 can out turn fight the MiG and deny it's zoom/boom moves with said turn rate. Using terrain to make life hell for the MiG is also fun as CFITs abound lol

Hey guys-

For all those interested in the footage and recording of the live event- I am getting both a highlight real/analysis of the match and a raw upload of the live stream ready. I've been busy with military obligations all week so sorry it has taken some time, but it IS coming soon

Round 2?!