Viggen vs MiG-21

Ah, you are mistaken in my contention. I do not state that the MiG-21 is the more agile opponent. The MiG's advantage comes from the greater engagement options its radar guided missiles give it.

Perhaps, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I do however contend that the F-5 is the more agile opponent, which when taken into account with its cannon, helps make up for its inferior missiles.

The F-5 is often said to be a good analog for the MiG-21, so I doubt it will outmaneuver the Viggen to be honest.

Also what if the Viggen gets the option of a belly gun like the F4 (?)

Perhaps, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

 

 

 

The F-5 is often said to be a good analog for the MiG-21, so I doubt it will outmaneuver the Viggen to be honest.

 

Also what if the Viggen gets the option of a belly gun like the F4 (?)

Gunpods are of... disputed effectiveness. On the F-4 they were rather inaccurate and lacked a gunsight to really take advantage of them. The fact they're hooked up to a pylon rather than embedded into the actual aircraft incurs problems with vibrations affecting accuracy. There's a not insignificant number of people who feel that the gunpods on the F-4 served more of a placebo effect, and in reality more reliable missiles and better training in BFM were far more effective at improving the F-4s exchange rates.

I don't know how well the Viggen can integrate a gunpod, I am inclined to believe, knowing nothing specific about the viggen's gunpod support, that it would be less accurate and prone to jamming if it can be carried at all, so I would still give the F-5 an advantage at knife fight range.

As for the F-5's maneuverability, I only can hold up its US Aggressor record as being a devastating opponent. The F-5 wing has enlarged leading edge extensions and other features to greatly improve maneuverability. While used as the MiG-21's stand in, it was and is a far superior dogfighter.

Gunpods are of... disputed effectiveness. On the F-4 they were rather inaccurate and lacked a gunsight to really take advantage of them. The fact they're hooked up to a pylon rather than embedded into the actual aircraft incurs problems with vibrations affecting accuracy. There's a not insignificant number of people who feel that the gunpods on the F-4 served more of a placebo effect, and in reality more reliable missiles and better training in BFM were far more effective at improving the F-4s exchange rates.

 

I don't know how well the Viggen can integrate a gunpod, I am inclined to believe, knowing nothing specific about the viggen's gunpod support, that it would be less accurate and prone to jamming if it can be carried at all, so I would still give the F-5 an advantage at knife fight range.

The gunsight alignment issue with the F4 was rather quickly solved however with a new belly mount and gunsight, and after that there were no dispersion issues. Worked a charm.

Thus I see no reason that the Viggen couldn't deploy a similar system, but knowing very little about the aircraft I simply don't know.

As for the F-5's maneuverability, I only can hold up its US Aggressor record as being a devastating opponent. The F-5 wing has enlarged leading edge extensions and other features to greatly improve maneuverability. While used as the MiG-21's stand in, it was and is a far superior dogfighter.

Good point about the LE devices, and with that in mind I agree that it's going to be a more formidable opponent in a dogfight than what a mere wing loading & T/W figure would tell you. It was probably considered a good analog due to size, speed and climb rate similarity then.

Wether it will be better than the Viggen though, hmm... I am not so sure. A 220 km/h landing speed is impressive, and we all know how much extra lift the vortices generated by LERXs provides, which is exactly what the Viggens canards do in addition to adding a lot of extra lifting surface.

PS: Also keep in mind that aggressor aircraft are flown by crack pilots, so that they hold a good record isn't surprising, they usually do in most aircraft :)

The AJS-37 should be able to carry 6 AIM-9L's, which shoiuld be fairly close to R-3S/R-3R in performance? As R-3's are essentially just reverse engineered AIM-9's?

With a very powerful engine even the attack Viggen should have a decent chance in a fight against it.

Which until we actually get the module is the only way we can discuss it.

We have MiG-21 SARH missiles and they're not that great at range... at least if you want some sort of chance to hit :lol:

Mig21 missile arent that good.

They seem to work for me..

The AJS-37 should be able to carry 6 AIM-9L's, which shoiuld be fairly close to R-3S/R-3R in performance? As R-3's are essentially just reverse engineered AIM-9's?

 

With a very powerful engine even the attack Viggen should have a decent chance in a fight against it.

the R-3S/R-3R are based of the Aim-9B .

The Aim-9L is a much later missile and is pretty much a Aim-9M.

the M replaced the L and is slightly more ECM resistant.

But Other then that they are the same missile (more or less)

And i might be wrong but my understanding is that even though its just the attack variant the Radar will still feed info to the Seeker of the missile (telling it where to look)

wich would give it an advantage over the Mig-21 all on its own.

Now regarding the lack of a gun, can't the AJ alternatively mount a small gunpod similar to the first F4 Phantoms?

It can mount 2 30mm cannons :)

the R-3S/R-3R are based of the Aim-9B .

 

The Aim-9L is a much later missile and is pretty much a Aim-9M.

 

the M replaced the L and is slightly more ECM resistant.

 

But Other then that they are the same missile (more or less)

 

And i might be wrong but my understanding is that even though its just the attack variant the Radar will still feed info to the Seeker of the missile (telling it where to look)

 

wich would give it an advantage over the Mig-21 all on its own.

Yes but MiG shoots front aspect and radar lock, AIM 9 cannot.

Aim-9L is all aspect so yes it can fire front aspect.

Also Aim-9L tend to be smokey

The Viggen can force look down and the R3R becomes a non issue... In RL. In the game is magic right now :-)

Same thing with the migs radar. It should flat out not be able to lock onto a modern aircraft using a jammer, regardless of how many filters you have to spam at it. It's just a different level of technology, and such things are usually not represented in flight sims.

Well, if your MiG-21 looks like this it might be fine for look down shoot down and jamming resistance: http://imgur.com/Ly5bogO

:megalol:

Seriously though, can't wait to try a Viggen vs Fishbed battle! :thumbup:

the R-3S/R-3R are based of the Aim-9B .

 

The Aim-9L is a much later missile and is pretty much a Aim-9M.

 

the M replaced the L and is slightly more ECM resistant.

 

But Other then that they are the same missile (more or less)

 

And i might be wrong but my understanding is that even though its just the attack variant the Radar will still feed info to the Seeker of the missile (telling it where to look)

 

wich would give it an advantage over the Mig-21 all on its own.

Aim-9B is 5km range where the L is 18km.

R-3 have no chance against L.

18km? lol. I'm assuming a 9L handles roughly like a 9M here. Based off DCS's AIM-9 and some other sims I'm gonna guess that max head-on at medium alt/speed is probably more like 5nmi.

Effective high/moderate aspect range of 2.5 (edit: Or maybe 3nmi head-on) and a tail-on range of 1.5-2nmi.

Just a guess.

Well, if your MiG-21 looks like this it might be fine for look down shoot down and jamming resistance: http://imgur.com/Ly5bogO

 

:megalol:

 

Seriously though, can't wait to try a Viggen vs Fishbed battle! :thumbup:

This reminds of the picture posted here:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=140124

Pure speculation goes here : As far as agility goes, I don't expect too radical a difference between the two. May be Viggen will have a harder time with energy management, but I actually expect it to have better turn rate than the MiG. I suspect increases angles of attack would mean very quick loss of energy for Viggen (however large canard may or may not help with controllability even then).

If AJS-37 radar have at least a decent air to air mode, and if Sidewinders can be slewed to radar, than it may just be a non-contest victory for Viggen to be honest. AIM-9L & M are incomparably better than missiles available to MiG-21Bis. 6 x all aspect sidewinders is a match for any loadout MiG can come up with in my opinion.

Viggen can carry 2 x 30mm ADEN cannons in pods if need be. This would probably mean sacrificing a pair of Sidewinders though. Those are some pretty stout cannons though :).

From MiG's perspective, while Viggen's turn performance may be better atlow speeds (as well as high speeds I'd assume), I still think MiG may have better controllability and nose pointing ability at low speeds & high angles of attack. Also the Gun is a given, unlike AJS Viggen. Like mentioned before, there is the option of using a radar guided missiles too.

Although normally Viggen T/W ratio is better, with second afterburner MiG can get significantly advantageous T/W ratio under 4000 meters and for a few minutes.

Anyway, overall I think AJS Viggen will be advantageous. If we will also have AJ Viggens, against those MiG will have some more noticable advantages in form of R-3R and R-60M.

If though, unlikely will happen and we'll also get JA Viggens, that would a whole another story. They have a more powerful engine, better control surface actuators, BVR missiles, a very potent look down shoot down radar, data link and a couple of 30mm KCA cannons which put ADENs to shame. Also Jakt Viggens seem to have a "funny" feature : automatically maneuver the aircraft so that guns will hit target locked by radar. The final version, JA-37D... well we might as well discuss MiG-21 vs F-15 or Su-27 since this version has better avionics and 4 x AIM-120 missiles.

Last pharagraph is largely irrelevant though, since it seems we are getting AJS-37 version :). I also can't wait to test the two against each other!

Radar missiles are a big thing, and the R3R is deadly. If the 21 can grab the Viggen with its radar, the Viggen pilot will need to do work to evade it. I doubt it would be viable to headon into it and try and AIM9 the 21 before the R3R gets you.

After the merge, who knows.

Radar missiles are a big thing, and the R3R is deadly. If the 21 can grab the Viggen with its radar, the Viggen pilot will need to do work to evade it. I doubt it would be viable to headon into it and try and AIM9 the 21 before the R3R gets you.

 

After the merge, who knows.

But it shouldn't be that deadly...I've had a terrible time in the sim defending R-3Rs...I think I've had ~12 shot at me for 6 hits or something (in MP/F-15).

Its a 60s/70s tech missile, it should SUCK, IMO.

Anyway, its a bigger threat low altitude/~4nmi than an AMRAAM, I think that says something...

But it shouldn't be that deadly...I've had a terrible time in the sim defending R-3Rs...I think I've had ~12 shot at me for 6 hits or something (in MP/F-15).

 

Its a 60s/70s tech missile, it should SUCK, IMO.

 

Anyway, its a bigger threat low altitude/~4nmi than an AMRAAM, I think that says something...

Yeah when firing within parameters they pretty much don't miss. Think I had one pair that couldn't make some ridiculous turn once but that's about it. I think it has to do mostly with the 21s radar giving the R3R firing que at a very close range, where it's nearly unavoidable.

Then again they have the range of a decent IR missile at best, and in a scenario where you face 15s and 27s most of the time. I can't say it feels incredibly unfair.

Though that's a topic for a different thread I think.

Well, to drag it back on topic, I think the Viggen is going to have quite a challenge head-on with a 21 unless the R-3R's performance is changed. The R-3 reaches ~2000kts (IIRC) at low altitude! :fear:

But regardless of missile performance, Viggen vs Fishbed is going to be a fun fight!

It's just something that needs to be fixed. You should probably not even be able to lock onto one of those fighters while the SPJ is operating, and chaff should be doing bad things to those missiles.

Yeah when firing within parameters they pretty much don't miss. Think I had one pair that couldn't make some ridiculous turn once but that's about it. I think it has to do mostly with the 21s radar giving the R3R firing que at a very close range, where it's nearly unavoidable.

It's just something that needs to be fixed. You should probably not even be able to lock onto one of those fighters while the SPJ is operating, and chaff should be doing bad things to those missiles.

Chaff should do bad things to the MiG itself, let alone the missiles! If your target deploys chaff while you're locked on there should be a good chance of the MiG's radar tracking the chaff cloud rather than the target unless the passives filter is on.

FWIW, in latest open beta 1.5 version, R-3R seemed less of a death ray to me. If fired near max range, AI seem to evade it very easily and while dangerous at closer ranges it is finicky to acquire someone with radar and keep them locked at those ranges anyway. Also, unlike in 1.2, it now is quite smoky as it should be, making it easier to execute proper evasive action in relation to missiles position even if you have a crap RWR like MiG's own one.

So I'd still take a reliable all aspect sidewinder over R-3R.

Edit :

Something else we overlooked in this thread : unless I am mistaken AJS-37 doesn't have on board chaff/flare dispensers, at leas AJ-37 didn't. I think only JA-37D has them. So if you want counter measures you carry them on pods attached to pylons, sacrifing a pair of Sidewinders if I am correct.