Viggen vs MiG-21

So how do you guys think these two birds will compare?

I'm interested too, I don't know anything about the Viggen or how it will place in the ecosystem.

I wonder how it will do against the F-5E as well.

Id take the mig-21 over it for A-A.. (but i never take anything but the mig-21 anyways..)

The Viggen they are modelling is an attack version. It can only carry sidewinder for self defence. Due to this, I think the MiG-21bis is the better fighter/interceptor. The Viggen we are getting is from the 90's so it's more modern than the MiG-21bis, although the airframe was developed back in the 60's. Performance wise, you should not expect the Viggen to be a great dog-fighter. It's performance (turn rate, rate of climb etc.) is similar to the MiG-21bis as far as I know. Some traits are better, some are worse, but overall they are similar. If you compare the ground attack capabilities the Viggen is superior due to more modern systems, weapons and larger payload capacity.

I wonder how it will do against the F-5E as well.

That's an interesting thought, since both are limited to sidewinders. I do think it will have trouble against the F-5 though. Pretty sure the F-5 is more agile in a dogfight.

Just had a look at the Viggen's specifications as well as some of its features.

1. The wing loading of the Viggen is rather low at 347 kg/sqm, but that's not counting the canards which means it's probably more like in the region of 300 kg/sqm.

2. Climb rate is an impressive 40,000+ ft/min, with a T/W ratio of ~0.8

3. The radar and genreal avionics were supposedly quite capable for their time

In short it looks like it'll give the MiG-21 a run for its money in a straight up engagement.

While the viggen we are getting is the Attack Variant its the AJS 37 meaning it has all 6 pylons able to carry Aim9s.

If it can carry Aim-9Ls or just Aim9P3s depends on the year of AJS 37 they are modeling.

in the initial 1992 upgrade they did not add the Aim-9L that upgrade came in 96 but all AJS 37s where AIM-9L capable for all 6 pylons after that.

And given 6 Aim9Ls aswell as a radar that will feed the info to the Seekerhead the Viggen will have a large advantage over the Mig-21Bis.

The AJS has the Same engine as the AJ before it so its slightly weaker engine then the JA-37 but its still no slouch.

And also the viggen is the Attack variant but it was designed to be able to to fighter tasks as a secondary role.

The AJ designation Stands for A for Attack and J for Jakt wich is swedish designation for a Fighter.

So the AJ 37 is Attack aircraft first Fighter Second while the JA 37 is fighter first attack aircraft second.

And the upgraded variant is the AJS 37 with the S being for Spaning wich is the swedish term for reconnaissance.

But all in all id bet on the AJS 37 due to more advanced missiles and hud and just overall being slightly more advanced.

And while the AJS is a 90s upgrade the upgrades where mostly just weapons compatabillity and what pylons could use what.

No new cockpit instruments or engine upgrades etc.

Just an Upgraded Computer system to handle the modern weapons and pylons rewired to be able to use more pylons for the different weapon types.

So the AJS-37 only differs from the 1970s AJ-37 in the weapons it can carry pretty much.

A fighter Viggen on the other hand is superior to the Mig-23 MLD and is more then a match for even a Mig-29 and Su-27 when it comes to Weapons and avionics etc.

The mig-21 will be a danger to a viggen sure but how much of a danger will depend on the loadout of the viggen.

If the viggen is carrying 2-4 Aim-9Ls then the Mig-21 will find itself a nasty suprise unless it manages to sneak up on the viggen running silent.

A Fighter Viggen is a 4th Gen aircraft and is comparable to the Mig-29, Su-27, F-16, Mirage 2000C etc (of the same time frame ofc)

The Attack Viggen on the other hand is probably a 3rd Generation "fighter" so while more advanced then the mig 21 its closer then most other aircraft in the game (other then F-5E when that arrives)

The Viggen they are modelling is an attack version. It can only carry sidewinder for self defence. Due to this, I think the MiG-21bis is the better fighter/interceptor. The Viggen we are getting is from the 90's

I think this would make them pretty comparable against each other, favor for the Viggen if it gets all-aspect missiles like the Aim-9L.

The MiG-21 AAMs are comparable to it in range and are dependent on things like radar lock or rear aspect.

Just had a look at the Viggen's specifications as well as some of its features.

 

1. The wing loading of the Viggen is rather low at 347 kg/sqm, but that's not counting the canards which means it's probably more like in the region of 300 kg/sqm.

 

2. Climb rate is an impressive 40,000+ ft/min, with a T/W ratio of ~0.8

 

3. The radar and genreal avionics were supposedly quite capable for their time

 

In short it looks like it'll give the MiG-21 a run for its money in a straight up engagement.

Nr.2 and Nr.3 of those are based of the Fighter Viggen and not the Attack Viggen (AJ-37)

The Model we are Getting is a Attack Variant with a weaker engine then the Fighter variant and it also does not have as advanced Avionics as the fighter variant.

Armed with up to 6 Aim-9Ls (if you only want to carry Air-Air missiles) it is still superior to a Mig-21 Armament wise But the radar is much more simple then the fighter variant though still superior to the Mig-21Bis Radar.

So while the AJS-37 Is not a fighter it can defend itself and do so well.

Nr.2 and Nr.3 of those are based of the Fighter Viggen and not the Attack Viggen (AJ-37)

 

The Model we are Getting is a Attack Variant with a weaker engine then the Fighter variant and it also does not have as advanced Avionics as the fighter variant.

 

Armed with up to 6 Aim-9Ls (if you only want to carry Air-Air missiles) it is still superior to a Mig-21 Armament wise But the radar is much more simple then the fighter variant though still superior to the Mig-21Bis Radar.

 

So while the AJS-37 Is not a fighter it can defend itself and do so well.

Affirmative.

How much thrust does the AJ version possess, and what was/is its climb rate? These are important aspects in regards to how it will perform in a fight against the MiG-21.

It's a 1992+ bomber variant of the Viggen, the real question is how it performs against surface targets with F-15C's, Su-27's and MiG-29's around.

Affirmative.

 

How much thrust does the AJ version possess, and what was/is its climb rate? These are important aspects in regards to how it will perform in a fight against the MiG-21.

JA-37 has RM-8B engine with a thrust of 125kN.

AJ-37 has RM-8A engine. Thrust is 115,6kN. It is slightly lighter than the JA, but not so much that you would notice.

It's a 1992+ bomber variant of the Viggen, the real question is how it performs against surface targets with F-15C's, Su-27's and MiG-29's around.

Isn't it up to the Mirage 2000C's to escort the Viggens? It doesn't have to be alone you know :)

I wonder if there's any chance of getting both a fighter and attack version, anyone know how extensive the rework would be in systems and pit?

Since they are going out of their way to give us two F14s, who knows.

EDIT: meant to post this in the other thread, oh well.

It's a 1992+ bomber variant of the Viggen, the real question is how it performs against surface targets with F-15C's, Su-27's and MiG-29's around.

That's not what the thread is about though ;)

I wonder if there's any chance of getting both a fighter and attack version, anyone know how extensive the rework would be in systems and pit?

That would be awesome, but it would be a lot of work. They are very different. Not even the airframes are exactly the same, even if they look the same. The JA is slightly longer to be able to fit the modified engine. The computer systems are completely different, the radar is different, the weapons are different and the cockpit is different.... You get the point :)

JA-37 has RM-8B engine with a thrust of 125kN.

AJ-37 has RM-8A engine. Thrust is 115,6kN. It is slightly lighter than the JA, but not so much that you would notice.

In that case performance is probably not that much lower, and I'd epect perhaps a ~35,000 ft/min climb rate.

In terms of agility I do wonder how it will compare however. Supposedly the Viggen had to handle well at slow speeds, which indicates good turning performance in the subsonic region, where'as the MiG-21 as we know doesn't like flying slow at all but instead has that emergency thrust feature.

Can't really use wing loading figures for much either considering that the canards probably aren't counted in the 46 sqm figure (?).

The Viggen has no gun, and limited to sidewinders only. While the 9Ls are all aspect, they are less effective at engaging targets from the front than the back. The MiG doesn't have this problem. Sure it's gun isn't anything special, but it is a very capable fallback, and it has radar guided missiles, giving it an advantage going into the merge.

BVR goes to the MiG, BFM also goes to the MiG. The Viggen just has fewer options in how to engage, and while technically it's sidewinders are more advanced, the MiG has a bigger toolbox to play with.

Against the F-5, the advantage is murky. Neither have a BVR weapon, and the F-5 is limited to AIM-9Ps, and likely not the P4s which are all aspect. However, the Tiger does have a gun and is a more agile aircraft. I would however still give advantage to the F-5, simply because it has more options.

The Viggen in air to air is a one trick pony. No gun, no BVR, and while the engine is respectable, she is no dogfighter in terms of nimbleness. Long story short, bring Sidewinders but avoid the fight.

The Viggen has no gun, and limited to sidewinders only. While the 9Ls are all aspect, they are less effective at engaging targets from the front than the back. The MiG doesn't have this problem. Sure it's gun isn't anything special, but it is a very capable fallback, and it has radar guided missiles, giving it an advantage going into the merge.

 

BVR goes to the MiG, BFM also goes to the MiG. The Viggen just has fewer options in how to engage, and while technically it's sidewinders are more advanced, the MiG has a bigger toolbox to play with.

 

Against the F-5, the advantage is murky. Neither have a BVR weapon, and the F-5 is limited to AIM-9Ps, and likely not the P4s which are all aspect. However, the Tiger does have a gun and is a more agile aircraft. I would however still give advantage to the F-5, simply because it has more options.

 

The Viggen in air to air is a one trick pony. No gun, no BVR, and while the engine is respectable, she is no dogfighter in terms of nimbleness. Long story short, bring Sidewinders but avoid the fight.

What do you base your claim regarding the Viggens nimbleness on?

As far as I can tell she might even be more capable in WVR than the MiG-21, esp. if we get the JA version as well.

Btw the MiG's IR missiles are too effective atm, they really shouldn't have an advantage over the AIM-9L.

What do you base your claim regarding the Viggens nimbleness on?

 

As far as I can tell she might even be more capable in WVR than the MiG-21, esp. if we get the JA version as well.

 

Btw the MiG's IR missiles are too effective atm, they really shouldn't have an advantage over the AIM-9L.

There doesn't seem to be any JA version in the pipe however, given what we see from the Steam DB module list. I base my assumptions purely on the AJS-37, noting the lack of gun, and BVR missiles. The MiG-21 has a close and medium range toolkit that the Viggen simply cannot copy. The MiG-21 gets SARH missiles, which can be fired at a longer range than the 9L, giving the MiG the advantage at the merge. Furthermore, according to German wikipedia, the Viggen is only stressed to 7g, limiting its turning performance.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_37

The MiG-21 gets SARH missiles, which can be fired at a longer range than the 9L,

eh, on paper.

eh, on paper.

Which until we actually get the module is the only way we can discuss it.

There doesn't seem to be any JA version in the pipe however, given what we see from the Steam DB module list. I base my assumptions purely on the AJS-37, noting the lack of gun, and BVR missiles. The MiG-21 has a close and medium range toolkit that the Viggen simply cannot copy. The MiG-21 gets SARH missiles, which can be fired at a longer range than the 9L, giving the MiG the advantage at the merge. Furthermore, according to German wikipedia, the Viggen is only stressed to 7g, limiting its turning performance.

 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_37

7 G is the safe load factor, the load limit is usually 1.5 times higher. These two are often confused.

The F-14 for example had its load limit decrease over time to prolong airframe life, from 7.5 G, to 7 and finally to 6.5 G, yet the airframe could take an astounding 14 G without failing. So there should be no worries about losing anything when turning at 9 G ingame.

But with that said in a WVR scenario you're not really going to be flying around 7 G's for long anyway, the MiG can for example only sustain a max of around 4.8 G's at M 0.9. Wether the Viggen can beat this I am not sure, but a reputedly good low speed agility seems to suggest so, and if the canards aren't included in the wing area figure of 46 sqm then that would mean a very low wing loading as well.

Now regarding the lack of a gun, can't the AJ alternatively mount a small gunpod similar to the first F4 Phantoms?

Alright just had a look at the landing speed difference:

MiG-21 = 351 km/h

Viggen = 220 km/h

Looking at this I think its pretty obvious that the Viggen will be the more agile of the two in the subsonic regime, and to a noticable degree. This also confirms the claim of the Viggens impressive low speed handling, and there's little doubt now that the 46 sqm figure excludes the canards which substantially increase lift not only in terms of area but also due to the vortice it generates over the main wing.

Ah, you are mistaken in my contention. I do not state that the MiG-21 is the more agile opponent. The MiG's advantage comes from the greater engagement options its radar guided missiles give it.

I do however contend that the F-5 is the more agile opponent, which when taken into account with its cannon, helps make up for its inferior missiles.