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Was it similar to this video Rolds? I post this video one page back.

 

Move to 2:30 if you want to skip

 

 

It was in a 172 and I didn't have an outside view to confirm, but my sensation from the cockpit was that the nose was a few degrees left of the direction of motion which was quickly "corrected" through the jolt that I felt. I don't mean this as a data point for our discussion of what the warbirds should be like, they're going to be very different beasts. I only bring it up to point out how precise landings must be in real life, in contrast to this behaviour where any need to align the aircraft to its direction of travel, and any risk of error seems to have been eliminated.

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIKGZfuOOnU

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  • 2 weeks later...

noooooooooo

 

 

i felt the landing and take off were just perfect before. on ALL of the WWII birds.

 

you are supposed to be little nervous on every landing. nervous at least about ruining otherwise good mission in the final part if you are not be able to imagine your virtual life as precious as your real one..


Edited by voodooman
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https://youtu.be/kv_9gSyajuw?t=10s

 

 

I did this quick video to demonstrate that you no longer need to use the rudder to land the 109, even in a heavy crosswind. This is the "land-difficult" mission from the challenge campaign done with my feet off the pedals.

 

 

The winter conditions are a little misleading. As we know there isn't runway icing or snow yet in DCS and this result can be repeated in summer.

 

 

I don't want a middle ground between this and the old model, I want the old model back. As an option is fine just please give us back realism.


Edited by Rolds
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I did this quick video to demonstrate that you no longer need to use the rudder to land the 109, even in a heavy crosswind.

A rather misleading description since your 109 immediately started to weathervane after touchdown and ground looped afterwards.


Edited by bbrz

i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070 

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Definitely it's the sideways friction coefs that have been tuned down, either for specific aircraft of for the surface types themselves ( ? )

 

 

I still find that although with it's limitations, X-Plane is probably the simulator that presently does the best job at simulatiog softfield conditions vs paved runways. Operating the 109 F4, G2, G6 and G10 and P51d models I have for it is really a charm, compared to the combat sims, the same applying to tail surface authority at taxi speeds and power settings, and during takeoff - the end result is probably the most realistic I can find among the sims I( 've ) use ( d )....

 

 

The sideways friction coefs should probably get increased a bit, together with the longitudinal. I always found the ww2 birds too lose when taxiing, accelerating too fast at any TOW...


Edited by jcomm
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Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream...

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Friction simulation is even worse in x-plane IMO. Together with the horrible turbulence and (equally bad) shock strut simulation, even remotely realistic crosswind takeoffs and landings are impossible.

 

In x-plane there's no way to keep even a 747 straight during a xwind takeoff. No such unrealistic behavior in DCS :)

i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070 

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Definitely it's the sideways friction coefs that have been tuned down, either for specific aircraft of for the surface types themselves ( ? )

I compared versus the 1.5.8 data: The side friction coefficients have been reduced for the Bf-109's main and tail wheels. I test-landed with both current and old coefficients and found no significant change in behaviour.

 

However, I had done a lousy landing a few days ago and yes, I did a nice pirouette. With the old settings I might have incurred some damage.

Personally I find the Bf-109 easier to land than the FW-190 because it's more stable at low speed, and I do not see a need for the friction change. In fact, I prefer the older more realistic values.

 

I have created a little mod (managed with OvGME) that gives me the old coefficients back when I want to.

LeCuvier

Windows 10 Pro 64Bit | i7-4790 CPU |16 GB RAM|SSD System Disk|SSD Gaming Disk| MSI GTX-1080 Gaming 8 GB| Acer XB270HU | TM Warthog HOTAS | VKB Gladiator Pro | MongoosT-50 | MFG Crosswind Pedals | TrackIR 5

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A rather misleading description since your 109 immediately started to weathervane after touchdown and ground looped afterwards.

 

 

I think this is a post worth emphasising.

 

 

Regardless of whether the ground physics are correct, people should be careful contrasting RW experience with DCS. It's too easy to shrug off an event in DCS that would have left you requiring a change of underwear if it had happened in reality. Even those with RW warbird experience may not be able to judge this perfectly.

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I think this is a post worth emphasising.

 

 

Regardless of whether the ground physics are correct, people should be careful contrasting RW experience with DCS. It's too easy to shrug off an event in DCS that would have left you requiring a change of underwear if it had happened in reality. Even those with RW warbird experience may not be able to judge this perfectly.

 

Yes it ground loops but it never slams the wing down. The should have been beyond a scary landing, it would have destroyed the aircraft. My point here is that with the new model absolutely no crosswind technique is needed, ruder inputs aren't even needed, to land safely.

 

Edit -

 

Here a lighter aircrafts ground loops, the wheels dig in and tip the plane, Rather than just sliding.


Edited by Rolds
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I compared versus the 1.5.8 data: The side friction coefficients have been reduced for the Bf-109's main and tail wheels. I test-landed with both current and old coefficients and found no significant change in behaviour.

 

However, I had done a lousy landing a few days ago and yes, I did a nice pirouette. With the old settings I might have incurred some damage.

Personally I find the Bf-109 easier to land than the FW-190 because it's more stable at low speed, and I do not see a need for the friction change. In fact, I prefer the older more realistic values.

 

I have created a little mod (managed with OvGME) that gives me the old coefficients back when I want to.

 

Could I please have the files you used? I want to do this too.

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1.Yes it ground loops but it never slams the wing down. The should have been beyond a scary landing, it would have destroyed the aircraft.

2.My point here is that with the new model absolutely no crosswind technique is needed, ruder inputs aren't even needed, to land safely.

1. Why should the plane be 'destroyed'? How about a bent wingtip?

2. You have proven exactly the opposite in your video and I have no idea why you consider a ground loop a 'safe landing'.


Edited by bbrz

i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070 

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Where I say safe I mean undamaged and the pilot is not hurt. And these videos are no where near as bad as a situation where the plane lands fully crabbed! Have you flown a plane? Would you ever consider doing any landing, let alone cross wind, with your feet off the pedals?

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1.And these videos are no where near as bad as a situation where the plane lands fully crabbed!

2.Would you ever consider doing any landing, let alone cross wind, with your feet off the pedals?

1. Many aircraft can be landed fully crabbed, and some, even light jets like the T-38 should only be landed with the full crab angle.

 

2. Just check the linked video. The first two touchdowns are done without any rudder input.

 

Your definition of a 'safe' landing is apparently quite a bit different than mine and yes, I have flown quite a few different aircraft within the last few decades.


Edited by bbrz

i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070 

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...Would you ever consider doing any landing, let alone cross wind, with your feet off the pedals?

 

I would hope you never have either. As RW pilots the landings you/we make are done so with the aim of keeping the plane totally under control at all times. Unless you make a habit of hiring warbirds and deliberately ground looping them, you can't definitively say which of previous or current ground models is more accurate.

 

And I don't think you can't claim no technique is required in DCS when you were out of control in your video.

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Don't feel like I'm ever going to change minds but I'm still convinced that in these situations the 109 should tip over.

 

 

 

But I don't care so much anymore because I figured out how to get the old model back! It now drags a wing when I ground loop :thumbup: Anyone interested in my technique PM me.

 

 

A lot of friction values were changed. Some of the friction values for the tail wheel were 60%-94% reduced from their old value.

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Transparency would help!

 

We can argue about the pros and cons of this change forever,and I have a feeling that we'll never come to a consensus.

 

I have to assume that ED had good reasons for making the change. And I will pobably continue to use the old model.

What I resent however is the lack of transparency (glasnost?) in what ED does. We have been flying with the old model for years and most of us have learned to control the beast, and once you have learned it it's still a nice challenge and it's fun. And then one day, unannounced and without any explanation why, ED changes the ground behaviour. And we discover, by surprise, that the model has been changed.

This change should have been, as a minimum, listed in the change log. Plus, we should have been given an explanation "why".

 

ED, please practice glasnost!

LeCuvier

Windows 10 Pro 64Bit | i7-4790 CPU |16 GB RAM|SSD System Disk|SSD Gaming Disk| MSI GTX-1080 Gaming 8 GB| Acer XB270HU | TM Warthog HOTAS | VKB Gladiator Pro | MongoosT-50 | MFG Crosswind Pedals | TrackIR 5

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ED has never listed all the changes in the changelog. Thats just how ED works.

 

Anyway Sithspawn has already asked Yo-Yo to take another look. I really can't understand how any of the people here really think the current behaviour is in anyway plausible.

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

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But I don't care so much anymore because I figured out how to get the old model back! It now drags a wing when I ground loop :thumbup: Anyone interested in my technique PM me.

 

 

PM sent :-)

 

 

Sometime ago, one of the changes I did was increasing the tailwheel axial drag coeficient. Don't know but the 109 k-4 always felt a bit "loose" on ground - add a bit of power and it it accelerates wildly, on paved or non-paved surfaces...

 

 

Of course if the sideways friction has been tuned down as much as you point out, something must feel weird now :-/


Edited by jcomm

Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream...

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Seems like it was adjusted again in the latest Open beta patch. Seems to be more or less the way it was before.

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

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Seems like it was adjusted again in the latest Open beta patch. Seems to be more or less the way it was before.

 

 

I really don't like this way of working through the patches, without a single word about some items.

 

 

It's been like this since always, and it's really not good :-/

 

 

Maybe just a lack of coordination between the teams responsible for the web updates and internal development ( ? )


Edited by jcomm

Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream...

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Seems like it was adjusted again in the latest Open beta patch. Seems to be more or less the way it was before.

 

 

I've had a chance to work with the new openbeta version. First off, my way of getting back to the old model was to replace the FMOptions.lua file with the version found in DCS 1.5 (that I downloaded yesterday). Today's update did not change those values. After the update I compared this file to a backup I took yesterday and could see no difference.

 

 

 

However having done some pattern work and tests I do think they made some sort of change today, I just don't know what it was. It still feels like Messerschmidts on Ice to me so I went back to the DCS 1.5 friction values.

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So unfamiliar as I am with the forum, didn't realize you can't send files via PM. Therefore to the guys that wrote me, here is the FMOptions.lua file from DCS 1.5.

 

 

You just replace the "Eagle Dynamics>DCS World>Mods>aircraft>Bf-109K-4>FM"

 

 

file with this one.

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I and a squadmate looked through the fm options luas. Both after deleting all mods and doing dcs repairs. The values are definitely different, and grass landings have become much more difficult again.

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

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yeah, with the latest openbeta patches, they changed the values of the mainwheel's sidefriction back from 3.5 to 5.5....before the initial changes, the value was set to 7.0 iirc...so what we have now is an acceptable compromise. wings will drop again if you are not cautious...and terrible landings will have terrible endings.

 

one thing i noticed with yesterday's patch though...while doing some grass landings with unlocked tailwheel to test the new behaviour, on two occasions, i had the tailwheel bouncing up. and instead of observing a decrease in its swing, it became more and more severe with every bounce, up until the tailwheel collapsed. would love the devs to have one more look at this...

 

the rest seems plausible, at least from the so far little testing i have done. no more tokio drift at least, so its a step in the right direction.


Edited by birdstrike
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