Which trainer...

Hi guys,

Need advice and support again...! But i know the community is always ready to help :)

I haven't flown any DCS since Januar, and is totally blank again, but i want to prepare myself for the upcoming F-18C, and therefor want to refresh everything from cold start ups to navigation etc.. :pilotfly:

So my question is which aircraft have the best training missions for the above, the L-39C or the Hawk... And in same time which will be best in preparing for the F-18C...??

Thanks in advance,

Best regards,

Mo'

Hi,

L-39 by leaps and bounds! Check this link out to a previous post I remembered seeing. I couldn't say it better than that : )

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=176031

I'd say the A-10C ... is the most similar of current DCS planes to the F-18 system's wise.

A-10 for sure.

The others are fine for basic flight but the systems can't help you. The A-10C's use of the TGP, slaving Mavs, CCIP/CCRP and lasing is the knowledge you will require.

I'd go A-10 as well. Forgo the others, the Hawg is closer to the F-18 than others control wise.

L-39! ;)

Albatros of course

L-39 is the only trainer worth recommending right now, but it's not useful for training for the Hornet, unless you forgot how to use the stick and rudder. Procedures are totally different, systems are different (eastern block), units are different (metric), nav equipment is different, weapon employment is different.

Trainers in real life are used because of the cost and the risk involved in operating high performance airplanes. None of these factors are an issue in the simulator, so I suggest that you train in the most complex and similar aircraft to the F/A-18C, which in DCS is the A-10C.

As stated above, if you are looking for an aircraft to familiarize yourself in western modern cockpits and functionality, go for the A-10C. It is not a trainer, no, but it flies very gently and can carry a plethora of different arms. And you will have a heck of a good time.

If you specifically want a trainer aircraft or a two-seater, then go for the L-39. The Hawk, while a nice aircraft, is unfortunately ridden with bugs and oddities that are hopefully resolved at some point.

I would also give the F-5 Tiger a serious look,Twin Jet Engine,AA Radar and AA Missiles, similar ground munitions to The Hornet as well.

L-39 is the only trainer worth recommending right now, but it's not useful for training for the Hornet, unless you forgot how to use the stick and rudder.

It is useful for training as you can learn the airfield procedures, navigation in low-light/low-visibility by HSI etc. Trainer is a trainer regardless that the systems are simplified.

Procedures are totally different, systems are different (eastern block), units are different (metric)

L-39 changes units between Metric and Imperial based your settings. One of the rare aircrafts that offer you both.

nav equipment is different, weapon employment is different.

Principles are the same. HSI, Radio channels, frequencies, ATC procedures etc.

Weapon employments are same by basics, toss bombing, dive bombing, level bombing etc.

Trainers in real life are used because of the cost and the risk involved in operating high performance airplanes. None of these factors are an issue in the simulator, so I suggest that you train in the most complex and similar aircraft to the F/A-18C, which in DCS is the A-10C.

That is totally correct. It is not required to get a trainer as you can just go and crash as many times you want. So you can go straight away and start learning the exact version you want.

BUT

Trainers like L-39 are great because they will remove all the complexity and put you in a simplified aircraft that is more forgiving (and demanding same time) about flight maneuvers etc. Allowing you to hone your maneuvers or procedures without deepening the learning curve of the complex systems.

Lets take example difference between L-39ZA and A-10A for cannon runs.

Which one will teach better the procedures on approaching of the spotting, approaching, aiming, firing and extending the target?

A-10A teaches quickly just to shoot from distance and saturate the target area and just get away and hope that something hit.

While L-39ZA will teach you the speed, distance, angle of attack, accurate aiming, short bursts and evade the incoming fire in time.

After a simpler and yet more requiring aircraft like L-39ZA for ground attacks, the A-10A or A-10C cannon runs becomes easier and more effective as the basics are understood and the benefits of the A-10 are easy to notice and respect.

But if the person can't separate the procedure from the fine details like how a air speed indicator work by them looking different, then it is just better to either learn the basics or then get the actual module itself and start training there via deep and sudden learning curve.

Ok fwiw if you have an instructor then the l39 is worth its weight in gold, if not then it is simply not worth it. On the 16AGR we use the L39 for teaching General Handling and Formation , both close and Combat Spread, where we can use the backseat for the instructor and make teaching a lot quicker. It makes the whole process way quicker and relatively painless. ( the odd mid air not withstanding ). If you are not going to fly multicrew then the A10c is actually easier to operate and has a lot more depth for you to get into once you have the basics done.

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I absolutely love the Albatros, not only as a trainer but as a plane itself. It's the best to learn manual bombing and rocketing, it has a top-tier cockpit modelling which models circuit breakers aswell (a must for me), and last but not least it looks cool! :D

It is useful for training as you can learn the airfield procedures, navigation in low-light/low-visibility by HSI etc. Trainer is a trainer regardless that the systems are simplified.

Every aircraft in DCS can do that, except VFR only WWII stuff, you're not limited to a trainer. And A-10 can do that even better because it has typical western navigation equipment and symbology.

L-39 changes units between Metric and Imperial based your settings. One of the rare aircrafts that offer you both.

Yes, forgot about that.

Principles are the same. HSI, Radio channels, frequencies, ATC procedures etc.

Weapon employments are same by basics, toss bombing, dive bombing, level bombing etc.

L-39 is as remote from a Hornet, as an aircraft can be while still delivering some IFR and combat capabilities. With a proper mindset you can learn on any aircraft, doesn't mean it's the most practical or efficient way of doing this.

As WindyTX said, if you have a real experienced guy in the back, it is worth it, not because you will train particularly for Hornet experience, but it will make you a better pilot.

The L-39 is good for perfecting your flying. There's no SAS to correct for sloppy, ham fisted manoeuvring, no CCIP to aim your weapons for you, no autopilot to lessen the workload etc. If you want to fly and fight in it well, you will need to be attentive and precise. On top of that, the radio navigation suite is pretty good. You can practice precision and non-precision approaches, point to point flying... will it directly help you learn the Hornet? Not really, you might improve your "virtual airmanship" a bit, but you can do that in the A-10 as well. The Albatros just tends to make any deficiencies more apparent.

It really depends. If setting up a mission with poor weather conditions and navigating between multiple waypoints using instruments is something that you would like to practice than you should probably consider a trainer. A first hint (don't treat it too strictly) - if you find this

Otherwise if you're more into jumping directly into an action or just enjoy only the modern jets in DCS probably a trainer is not the best investment. I don't mean anything wrong here - there are different people that are interested in different things, have different expectations and time available to spend in DCS.

If it's the second case probably the best thing to do is just to wait for the F-18 and spend some time flying F-15/M-2000C/A-10C.

In ther first case however, if Hawk would be a polished module I guess choosing it should be no brainer. Otherwise consider L-39 and maybe F-86 as an alternative.

I do agree with both positions from "Some1" and "Fri13". The procudres, navigation and etc and apply the same on western build aircraft but it'll take some getting used to. In the same way, you can learn navigation, traffic patterns, BFM, etc... in F-86F and apply them almost imediatelly in MiG-15 but due to a different meassurement systems and a bit different instruments design, it'll take some time before you'll start to feel comfortable.

To be fair however there will be some differences (like using AoA bracket for landing in F-18 while L-39 requires to watch the speed) or just additional reading needed just to understand that the things/methods learned in L-39 are or aren't exactly the same.

On the topic of trainers - why none mentioned the C-101? Is it still much in development?

...

BUT

 

Trainers like L-39 are great because they will remove all the complexity and put you in a simplified aircraft that is more forgiving (and demanding same time) about flight maneuvers etc. Allowing you to hone your maneuvers or procedures without deepening the learning curve of the complex systems.

 

Lets take example difference between L-39ZA and A-10A for cannon runs.

Which one will teach better the procedures on approaching of the spotting, approaching, aiming, firing and extending the target?

 

A-10A teaches quickly just to shoot from distance and saturate the target area and just get away and hope that something hit.

While L-39ZA will teach you the speed, distance, angle of attack, accurate aiming, short bursts and evade the incoming fire in time.

 

After a simpler and yet more requiring aircraft like L-39ZA for ground attacks, the A-10A or A-10C cannon runs becomes easier and more effective as the basics are understood and the benefits of the A-10 are easy to notice and respect.

 

But if the person can't separate the procedure from the fine details like how a air speed indicator work by them looking different, then it is just better to either learn the basics or then get the actual module itself and start training there via deep and sudden learning curve.

+1. Regarding suggestions for A-10C I allow myself to disagree with statements that it's a good, general purpose trainer. Yes it's possible to use it for learning but in reality it requires a lot of consequence as otherwise you'll quickly dive into the particularities of the systems operation. Another thing is that the systems like SAS, CCIP/CCRP modes or actually even just a fact of having a HUD and FPM makes it much more easier for the pilot and people easielly tend to get used to the conviniences forgetting or not even feeling a need to learn the basics.

By all means, just to learn basics of controling instruments, navigation, attack procedures, a trainer or even a F-86 will be much better start with than A-10C as it'll put you out of context of the systems that are making a lot to help the pilot and keep you focused on the basics that later on can be transfered to any other airframe.

Another point is just from pure enjoyment perspective - getting experience with a trainer or vintage aircraft will make you actually notice the systems in the more modern platforms, apreciate what they can do aswell be aware about pitfalls that they can make you run into. It's an oportunity that allows you to experience closer how the aviation has evolved - which is hard to get from flying only the modern jets.

On the topic of trainers - why none mentioned the C-101? Is it still much in development?

Too bad we have no Texan II.

It all comes down to whether or not you need to learn US systems, or just to get some stick time.

The L-39 is equipped with Russian style instrumentation and systems, so the leap to the F/A-18 will be a huge one.

The A-10C is supported very well with in-depth training missions, and of course shares some common procedures and instrumentation will be compatible with the F/A-18. It has plenty of complexity and therefore will give you great grounding for what is to come.

Best advice would therefore be to get the A-10C and then practice with the training missions. There is also a suite of 3rd party DLC campaigns for the A-10C which will take you much deeper into the procedures side of things all the way up to Advanced Tactical Training.