F-14 FC3 version bundled with the sim/available separately?

I've posted a similar thread in the F/A-18 forum and do realise that this topic is sacrilege :), but imho it would be a great addition to DCS if "full fat" modules also had FC3 versions. ED bundled their Ka-50 and A-10C with "game" versions, but imho it's the FC3 versions that are really needed. There are a few reasons:

 

1)Not everybody is willing to learn the full set of real procedures, but a lot of people are interested in experiencing the flight dynamics and air combat in some particular aircraft.

 

2)Having a FC3 version makes returning to a module easier, if one had a few months away from DCS.

 

3)If I am not interested in the plane enough to learn all of its systems, I do not buy it. In my case, I like the Mirages, Mig-21s, F-5s and the Viggens - just not enough to learn all their systems. This is further compounded by point number 2) which is only more likely to happen here. BUT! If FC3 versions of these planes were bundled with the full sim modules (or available separately), I would be more likely to buy them. Some would become a definite buy (M2000, Viggen and Harrier) in my case.

 

4)From the developer's view point, FC3 version also makes sense as this would allow to sell their module to a broader audience and maybe even "sell it twice" - like ED is selling FC3 and its standalone planes.

 

Here is a thread just to show that I am not alone in such thinking: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=112030

 

Cheers!

 

PS I do own Ka-50, A-10C and the Huey (as well as Falcon BMS), I have studied them in sufficient depth to complete several of their Campaigns. So I am not a pure FC3 guy who "doesn't get" the attraction of a study sim.

Edited April 1, 2018 by Katmandu

I think ED has said they are not going to make simplified planes like FC3 anymore, not sure if 3rd party developers are allowed to make them? Personally i wouldnt want to see them anymore, and i certainly wouldnt want to see those simplified planes in MP but thats up to server owners to decide what modules they allow to use.

None 3rd party has plans to FC-3 models only "hardcore" modules, that require a new license.

everybody I know does want to learn the full procedures, its part of flying a proper sim, otherwise its like an arcade game

The way dcs is now I would recommend someone who is not interested in full procedures etc to play something else.

We trade decent optimization, ridiculous specs and long lasting bugs because of the depth and complexity this game has or can eventually achieve.

If you take these out you have something that can be bested by other offerings easily.

 

Also if you think about it if heatblur made an fc3 option available it would be through an optional setting in the full module. Definitely not another module as this would create multiplayer havoc.

The module is set to retail in excess of $70US at least. Has this audience you are describing the commitment to shelf out such an amount for arcade play?

Edited April 1, 2018 by dimitrischal

None 3rd party has plans to FC-3 models only "hardcore" modules, that require a new license.

 

That is good to know. I wasn't suggesting to develop a stand alone FC3 module, I was giving an example of ED's own A-10C and Ka-50 that have "game" mode bundled in. Only I suggested to replace the "game" mode with the "FC3" (or equivalent) mode. That is it.

 

everybody I know does want to learn the full procedures,

If you look at post counts for FC2 and FC3 forums here you will see that "everybody you know" may not be as representative of the DCS target market as you thought ;)

 

And yes, I would buy a full module like M2000 if it had a FC3 mode bundled in. In my OP I've linked a thread by somebody else who was ready to buy Ka-50 if its "game" mode was FC3 level.

 

The module is set to retail in excess of $70US at least. Has this audience you are describing the commitment to shelf out such an amount for arcade play?

When people consider buying a hardcore module, they know that if they do not learn it their money would be wasted. If FC3 version was in, they would know that they can have fun learning, and if it ends up being too much, they have FC3 to fall back to. Plus, there are sales prices. Plus, some modules are special enough (cough, F-14) to buy even at RRP price... Plus, getting a licence to sell a standalone FC3 version that is a fork of a hardcore sim may also prove possible.

 

But the biggest argument is the FC2/3 popularity and its untapped niche.

We have plenty of FC3 planes; "ground pounders" and very capable fighter. Why should they do even more. New players can buy the bundle or single FC3 planes. That doesn't change after the release of the F/A-18C/F-14.

 

Don't forget the auto start. With that you really don't need to do more than in the FC3 planes to fly Air to Air missions in terms of systems. Gear up, AA mode, Master ARM up and off you go. You can happily ignore the navigation systems and similar.

Yes, would love to see numerous FC3 versions and 3-5 plane FC3 bundles sold every year.

It's quite fun to fly "arcade kids-sim" FC3 that was state-of-the-art hightech super simulator just a few years ago when FC2 was all we had.

Amazing how peoples opinion change over short time.

Instead of making simplified versions of modules already made for a higher standard, it would be much better to have other interesting planes as new FC3 level modules. I am thinking about those russian cold war legends, like Mig-25 and 23 or the Su-22 and Mig-27.

 

Maybe there is not enough data available, or maybe there are other issues making them not suitable for developement as a full module, but still it would be great to have some of them, even with simplified systems, provided their flight models are up to a high standard.

 

(Btw these are also the ideal foes for the Tomcat :) )

 

1)Not everybody is willing to learn the full set of real procedures, but a lot of people are interested in experiencing the flight dynamics and air combat in some particular aircraft.

 

2)Having a FC3 version makes returning to a module easier, if one had a few months away from DCS.

 

3)If I am not interested in the plane enough to learn all of its systems, I do not buy it. In my case, I like the Mirages, Mig-21s, F-5s and the Viggens - just not enough to learn all their systems. This is further compounded by point number 2) which is only more likely to happen here. BUT! If FC3 versions of these planes were bundled with the full sim modules (or available separately), I would be more likely to buy them. Some would become a definite buy (M2000, Viggen and Harrier) in my case.

 

 

If you don't find it interesting, why bother in the first place ?

 

I am getting the feel that you have the wrong view on how full modules work.

 

If you think that you need to "to learn the full set of real life procedures" to fly or operate the aircraft you are badly mistaken. I'd say 70-80% of the community has a minimum or no knowledge of real life procedures, yet they can fly and operate the aircraft.

 

Some of the aircraft you gave as an example are so simple, they can be flown and used in just couple of hours of practice (how proficient is another topic, but that comes with the flying)

 

DCS is a simulator after all, and the majority of people are here for that, I don't think wasting time (with modules already needed countless hours of development time) with such stuff is needed.

 

At the end of the day, if you really just want the beautiful shell of the aircraft, there are other games that can provide you with that

 

 

If a developer think that they have to and have the time to do so and create such FC style of their aircraft, sure, go for it, but in no case should it be a requirement.

 

Just my opinion,

Cheers

 

Besides,(huh, this is actually funny) if you think FC3 is that much of an arcade game and easy to operate efficiently (especially the fighters), I take the guess that people have only played against AI

Edited April 2, 2018 by Shadow KT

+1 shadow, lol on post counts, just because a post is high does not reflect a fc3 type wanted, as shadow says I feel you need a diff simulator, and the vast majority ARE here for that.

if you take a lot of what your looking for out, then its a completely different game that your after.

surely learning the controls is part of this game and the fun of it.

fc3 post count 48,000

a10c 185,000

Edited April 2, 2018 by thrustvector

Instead of making simplified versions of modules already made for a higher standard, it would be much better to have other interesting planes as new FC3 level modules.

In an ideal world - yes. But in a real world AFM, 3D+texturing, systems development at FC3 level are very significant. Adapting a hardcore module to FC3 is much faster/cheaper than developing from scratch, there is no doubt about that.

If you don't find it interesting, why bother in the first place ?

 

if you think FC3 is that much of an arcade game

The reasons for bothering were listed in OP. Interest is a scale, not a black and white thing. Some people/ some modules have/generate enough interest to invest more time, others less - but the interest is still there.

 

I never said that FC3 is an arcade game. It is a full on combat simulator as opposed to full on trainer of a hardcore module.

 

 

+1 shadow, lol on post counts, just because a post is high does not reflect a fc3 type wanted,

fc3 post count 48,000

a10c 185,000

Now look at FC2 post count ;) Of course we could simply ignore/explain away the numbers and reduce everything to "it's just your opinion, man"... Lets not:) This community consists of many types of modern air combat enthusiasts.

Also, I was never suggesting to replace A-10C style modules, but lets not minimise the significant interest for FC3 style simulator in DCS.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Katmandu

Off topic, not trying to convince you about the subject at hand:

 

I would encourage you to buy either the F-5 or the Mirage and then study the Chuck's guide for 20 minutes, watch some Crash Laobi 1 minute DCS tutorials, then have a one hour practice session in the mission editor. Some quick visual circuits, then some live fire excersise.

 

Thats all the investment you need to start enjoying those modules, if you are already experienced with something like the A10C. Being proficient and combat ready is of course an other question, but compared to the A10 and the Kamov these are much more simple.

I think the FC3 aircrafts will be replaced over time with full DCS level modules, i play all the FC3 airplanes less and less because of the nice DCS modules we have and if i fly them i think every time: "why do we have no DCS module of them". I don't want any new FC3 level module anymore, just my oppinion.

 

...Now look at FC2 post count ;)...

You do realize that the FC1 and 2 forums are also "archived" threads from a time where FC 1 and 2 was the only thing we had! These were our "best" simulation we got befor the DCS modules, that's why there are so many posts, not because there are so many people who want the "old/simple times" back.

I would encourage you to buy either the F-5 or the Mirage and then study the Chuck's guide for 20 minutes, watch some Crash Laobi 1 minute DCS tutorials,

Thats all the investment you need to start enjoying those modules

Thanks! I am an old timer here and know about Chuck’s guides (they’re awesome!) and “it is not as hard as you think” arguments (heck, I’ve posted them myself in the Ka-50 thread that I linked in my OP where somebody wanted an FC3 level Ka-50) ;)

 

 

You do realize that the FC1 and 2 forums are also "archived" threads from a time where FC 1 and 2 was the only thing we had!

DCS Ka-50 was out in 2008, A-10C in 2010 (?), and there was Falcon BMS of course. many people continued to enjoy FC1/FC2/FC3 during those years, and still do - as evident by the post count/views once again.

 

And, this FC3 VS “trainer modules” mentality is not necessary. ED have bundled “game” arcade versions of their sims (much-much cruder than FC3 unfortunately, they even went as far as create simplified flight models just for Ka-50/A-10C “game modes”). I am all for full fat full simulation modules, but having an FC3 version of the same plane would be great too. Great for FC fans and great for the developers who can sell to a broader base without having to do a huge amount of work.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Katmandu

As has been stated the fc3 planes were used to populate dcs world servers when the only available modules were the a10 and the ka50. Ideally they would be all turned to full fidelity modules in a dream world were economics didn’t exist or matter.

 

But economics do matter. And if we analyze your request we get extra costs for the simplified model and systems, the lost revenue from people buying the simplified version for YouTube videos or the wow factor (instead of the full extra tricked out 80s avionics and flight systems paradise+ added carrier bundle) vs the increase in sales from people who wouldn’t bother buying it but will give it a go with an easier learning curve.

Somehow I don’t think there are so many of them to tip the scales of economics.

 

YouTube will need a new data center for the Tomcat videos either way though:pilotfly:

...ED have bundled “game” arcade versions of their sims (much-much cruder than FC3 unfortunately, they even went as far as create simplified flight models just for Ka-50/A-10C “game modes”). I am all for full fat full simulation modules, but having an FC3 version of the same plane would be great too. Great for FC fans and great for the developers who can sell to a broader base without having to do a huge amount of work.

And they abandoned the "game-mode" and no 3rd party dev is using it? Never tried it, so i'm guessing here about 3rd party dev, but i think there was a post that ED themself is not going to implement this in any other module.

Ofcourse the FC3 aircrafts are popular, we don't have DCS modules of F-15/Su-27/Su-33/Mig-29/Su-25/-T/A-10A until now. If we would get them as full DCS modules i would never touch FC3 again and i think that is the only reason for the vast majority to fly FC3 aircrafts.

But economics do matter. And if we analyze your request we get extra costs for the simplified model and systems, the lost revenue from people buying the simplified version for YouTube videos or the wow factor (instead of the full extra tricked out 80s avionics and flight systems paradise+ added carrier bundle) vs the increase in sales from people who wouldn’t bother buying it but will give it a go with an easier learning curve.

Somehow I don’t think there are so many of them to tip the scales of economics.

 

Economics definitely do matter. Thus my original suggestion was to bundle the FC3 mode with the full sim module, like ED did with the game mode in Ka-50 and A-10C. Without such bundle, the module is only bought by hardcore fans who are confident that they have what it takes to learn the module. With such bundle, the module will be bought by the hardcore + the FC3 crowd who are less confident (not all of FC3 guys as the price of the full module would be too high for them).

 

The projected sales of a separate cheaper FC3 module should also be substantial as flight sim "hardcoreness" is likely normally distributed and there are more customers for every step down in hardcoreness - ending in Ace Combat shifting millions of copies :) FC3 is long way up from AC series of course, but the increase in customer base should still be sizable and profitable for the little amount of extra work that is needed.

 

The devil may well be in detail, but if ED can turn a profit on a standalone FC3 module like SU-33, with all the modelling and physics done from scratch... Heatblur MUST make profit from converting existing module to FC3.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Katmandu

Not to sound like an elitist or anything, but if I had my way I would remove all the FC3 aircraft from my server, they cause too many balance issues with the real simulated aircraft, (time to being the air, difficulty in weapon launching, etc, they are clearly easier to run). BUt too many people fly them, I really cant, community is too small (and there is really no newer fully simulated russian fighters, I really wish there were too)

yea you see I don't agree with the great for FC3 fans thing, as said above, the reasons people still fly, myself included the F15,SU 25 etc etc, is because we don't have a full cockpit model, this being the type of sim it is is why we love it, its not arcady its full on, I have off by heart every click of every switch in every model I own, I spend a few hours going over the start of every new module till I get it straight off, and before you say I'm no spring chicken, and have meds that don't help.

I'm not saying this for an argument, far from it, I just really don't think the majority are after an easier simulation, dam I hate even the quick start buttons being in game lol

Edited April 2, 2018 by thrustvector

Not to sound like an elitist or anything, but if I had my way I would remove all the FC3 aircraft from my server, they cause too many balance issues with the real simulated aircraft, (time to being the air, difficulty in weapon launching, etc, they are clearly easier to run). BUt too many people fly them, I really cant, community is too small (and there is really no newer fully simulated russian fighters, I really wish there were too)

Server politics are always tough, but online only accounts for 5% of all users ( or some similar number, from what I remember Chizh saying at some point) so this topic should not impact yourself or the broader online community.

BUt too many people fly them

;)

Economics definitely do matter. Thus my original suggestion was to bundle the FC3 mode with the full sim module, like ED did with the game mode in Ka-50 and A-10C. Without such bundle, the module is only bought by hardcore fans who are confident that they have what it takes to learn the module. With such bundle, the module will be bought by the hardcore + the FC3 crowd who are less confident (not all of FC3 guys as the price of the full module would be too high for them).

 

The projected sales of a separate cheaper FC3 module should also be substantial as flight sim "hardcoreness" is likely normally distributed and there are more customers for every step down in hardcoreness - ending in Ace Combat shifting millions of copies :) FC3 is long way up from AC series of course, but the increase in customer base should still be sizable and profitable for the little amount of extra work that is needed.

 

The devil may well be in detail, but if ED can turn a profit on a standalone FC3 module like SU-33, with all the modelling and physics done from scratch... Heatblur MUST make profit from converting existing module to FC3.

 

Sim hardcoreness even is evenly distributed among the players is not evenly distributed among titles so you can’t twist every number to support your claim. DCS was built to cater for a specific niche, not the general flight simmer population. There are other games that do that.

 

FC3 was integrated because people would be limited to groundpounding for years due to the complete absence of content.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=93704 By wags himself

 

Elitism or not the only server in dcs without fc3 modules is the best online gaming experience I have had in years regardless of genre.

However you can find small concessions in other modules adding arcade value, I can think the mirage instant align option first, besides with the helper ai the tomcat will be quite easy to fly anyway...

Edited April 2, 2018 by dimitrischal

I just really don't think the majority are after an easier simulation,

I never said about majority, only that sizeable amount of people like FC1/2/3. I *suspect* that FC remains to be the most profitable module for ED, but I have no proof link. Would be interesting to know for sure.

 

Sim hardcoreness even is evenly distributed among the players is not evenly distributed among titles so you can’t twist every number to support your claim.

I don't understand what you are saying here.

Su-33 was to all intents and purposes made from scratch as SFM is about as much help in making AFM as using a 3d model from Ace Combat to make a new hi poly model for DCS.

 

My point was that Heatblur would accomplish an FC3 module without having to build it from scratch, and it would be marketed not to the elitists who "do not care about FC3 any more", but to other guys who "want to fly and not work" (description of FC3/IL2 by one RL Airbus pilot). Both groups get their products, Heatblur gets more profit and spends more on its current and future module development. Win-win for everybody.

Server politics are always tough, but online only accounts for 5% of all users

;)

 

Multiplayer should be a gem and the main stay of this sim, single player, playing against the same thing/AI over and over,I really don't understand this mentality, it doesn't make ANY sense to me, I started the DDCS channel 3 months ago, my discord has 1292 registered unique players and my server ALONE has had 2567 unique UCID's (ED identifier) on my server since I reset the database 3 months ago, by your statement ALONE, you say there is 51340 DCS single players out there that played in the last 3 months (saying that all the multiplayer players have played on my server at least once, which also isnt true, its just a small subset), I am pretty sure that 5% percentage is NOT correct.(im not making numbers up, I have it all in my database if you want to see it.)

my server ALONE has had 2567 unique UCID's (ED identifier) on my server since I reset the database 3 months ago, by your statement ALONE, you say there is 51340 DCS single players out there that played in the last 3 months

 

People who play online are about 5% of people who have bought the product. That is how I remembered it, I'll see if I can find the exact quote.

And online and offline both have their pluses, but lets skip at least that can of worms in this thread :) Not that I disagree with "Multiplayer should be a gem and the main stay of this sim".

 

EDIT (off topic):

 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Katmandu