German air force unable to train pilots because of shortage of planes

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/08/05/german-air-force-unable-train-pilots-shortage-planes/

I had no idea it was this bad.

Yea its really sad, they even had to hire civilian helicopters to get their pilots sufficient flying hours, because they couldnt keep enough of the armys own flying. Almost makes you wanna set up a charity for our military... dunno if i wanna laugh or cry at that joke.

Over the past year the german air force got hit by a wave of fighter jet pilots who resigned from duty and quit because they were frustrated with the low number of flight hours and underwhelming flight training.

Here are some articles about it (only available in german unfortunately):

- https://augengeradeaus.net/2019/02/kuendigungen-von-jet-piloten-der-luftwaffe-neuer-hoechststand-im-vergangenen-jahr/comment-page-2/

- https://augengeradeaus.net/2018/05/schwund-beim-eurofighter-eine-pilotin-erklaert-ihre-kuendigung/

The Air Force has laumched a programm to counter this:

They have too much pilots… :D Look to Austria. They have 2,5 jets for 1 Typhoon pilot :D That is how it is done ;)

If you have 141 jets and 875 pilots for those jets… that never can work.. there you have little more than 6 pilots for one jet, that makes 1.120 hours a year for each plane... that is too much if you want to keep a jet 20 years. They are not built to fly 22.400 hours…

So if this data is right that the EF pilots do not get their hours, something within the HR went completly wrong...

875 are not just the Eurofighter pilots, but all Bundeswehr pilots, including army and navy helicopter pilots as well as pilots on staff duty. ;)

Contract with the US...we don’t have enough pilots!

"Eine Prise mehr "Top Gun" und weniger Finanzamt"

But yeah, the state of the defence in most European countries is pretty sad...

What I personally find interesting is that Russia, which has a GDP with a size between Spain and Italy, is still seems able to field more military power than the entire European "union" (or is that spelled onion?).

Germany has more than twice the GDP of Russia, but is barely able to field a meaningful defence force.

You can say what you want about Trump, but he's absolutely right with regards to spending levels of NATO countries.

It's getting a bit ridiculous. Germany has had this problem for an entire decade now.

Pretty sure the bundeswher has something like a single battalion of tanks left too. Sold the rest of them off in the 90s.

:lol:

 

 

But yeah, the state of the defence in most European countries is pretty sad...

 

 

What I personally find interesting is that Russia, which has a GDP with a size between Spain and Italy, is still seems able to field more military power than the entire European "union" (or is that spelled onion?).

 

 

Germany has more than twice the GDP of Russia, but is barely able to field a meaningful defence force.

 

 

You can say what you want about Trump, but he's absolutely right with regards to spending levels of NATO countries.

Well, Russia has the advantage of low costs, meaning they can afford a lot more stuff and personal with the same amount of money than a western country could, because in Russia the costs are lower.

Well, Russia has the advantage of low costs, meaning they can afford a lot more stuff and personal with the same amount of money than a western country could, because in Russia the costs are lower.

That makes a partial difference, yes, but the bigger issue is that Russia simply spends a much larger portion of their money on it in the first place. Having half as much money overall is irrelevant if you're spending four times as much on a given category.

That makes a partial difference, yes, but the bigger issue is that Russia simply spends a much larger portion of their money on it in the first place. Having half as much money overall is irrelevant if you're spending four times as much on a given category.

Russia (61.4 Bn $) is spending less than France (63.8 Bn $) on its military in absolute numbers.

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffe_(Bundeswehr)

127 EUROFIGHTER

93 TORNADO

uaaaaoooooo all these planes are doing better than Italy and what else do you want?

I don't believe that Germany is in crisis these numbers are excellent they are making only crocodile tears.

Germany and France are studying for the production of a new fighter that has the same skills as an f-35 and f-22.

Italy does not participate in this project with FRANCE and GERMANY of course.

I'm no insider, but I suppose there is a lot of bullshit written about the German airforce and the army alltogether. But bad news sell and the media are like hyenas. If someone's wounded, they jump right at their throat. :smartass:

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffe_(Bundeswehr)

 

127 EUROFIGHTER

93 TORNADO

uaaaaoooooo all these planes are doing better than Italy and what else do you want?

I don't believe that Germany is in crisis these numbers are excellent they are making only crocodile tears.

 

 

Germany and France are studying for the production of a new fighter that has the same skills as an f-35 and f-22.

Italy does not participate in this project with FRANCE and GERMANY of course.

Those are the numbers on paper, but a huge portion of those aircraft are not in ready condition, because our maintainance system is pretty borked, which causes maintainance to take much much longer than it should.

I must say that after this incident in Germany we have to stop and think about what went wrong.

surely the German air force has to understand what it is that doesn't work.

after all we Italians also had problems but they have certainly been solved.

In regard to the crashes: I don't see a systematic issue there. The pilots crashed into each other during air combat training. Such accidents just happen sometimes. Look at the great US fighters, which do crash sometimes too. It's a dangerous business.

like the famous ramstein accident in germany ...... the hypotheses say that the pilots sabotaged the controls to make them die. the pilots in question were witnesses of the famous accident of ustica and they made him die in order not to testify on the incident of ustica.

from that moment on Germany did not show the tricolor arrows in German territory anymore. This thing I am sorry because it was a malicious accident for me not a casual accident .... we remember that the pilots of the tricolor arrows are professionals and come from the best academic schools.

Whatever the cause of that infamous accident, the Italians effectively killed aerobatic shows in Germany. Everything since then have been very tame displays, nothing like in the 70s and 80s.

In the UK the air shows were still better but also tamed down over time...

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/25279/eurofighter-consortium-2-0-takes-shape-as-spain-set-to-join-franco-german-stealth-jet-program

FRANCE AND GERMANY plan the new fighter then followed by SPAIN. FCAS.

While ITALY and DUTCH agrees with the UK for the new TEMPEST project.

Maybe someone's taken the old saying to heart: "The Bundeswehr's job is to hold off the enemy until military arrives" :D

It's always difficult to get a complete picture when most reports come from sensationalist media outlets, but I think quite highly of Thomas Wiegold and his "Augen geradeaus!" blog. And it's not like the terrible readiness state in all branches in the German military is in any way new.

Add to that that during her run as defense minister, Ursula von der Leyen invested heavily in civil Business Consultants for the Bundeswehr. Maybe they came up with some good ideas. But whatever money they made certainly did not go into flight readiness, and we're talking double digit millions of euros per year. Let's see what AKK47 can come up with before she (presumably) upgrades to Bundeskanzler.

like the famous ramstein accident in germany ...... the hypotheses say that the pilots sabotaged the controls to make them die. the pilots in question were witnesses of the famous accident of ustica and they made him die in order not to testify on the incident of ustica.

 

from that moment on Germany did not show the tricolor arrows in German territory anymore. This thing I am sorry because it was a malicious accident for me not a casual accident .... we remember that the pilots of the tricolor arrows are professionals and come from the best academic schools.

Even the best and most professional pilots are not safe from making mistakes of their own. I've never heard of sabatoge in regards to the Rammstein accident and frankly, it sounds like some odd conspiracy theory to me. Even the famous american Blue Angels and Thunderbirds crash sometimes as happened multiple times in the past 2 years.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/25279/eurofighter-consortium-2-0-takes-shape-as-spain-set-to-join-franco-german-stealth-jet-program

 

FRANCE AND GERMANY plan the new fighter then followed by SPAIN. FCAS.

While ITALY and DUTCH agrees with the UK for the new TEMPEST project.

FCAS is being discussed here as well: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=243299

Maybe someone's taken the old saying to heart: "The Bundeswehr's job is to hold off the enemy until military arrives" :D

 

It's always difficult to get a complete picture when most reports come from sensationalist media outlets, but I think quite highly of Thomas Wiegold and his "Augen geradeaus!" blog. And it's not like the terrible readiness state in all branches in the German military is in any way new.

 

Add to that that during her run as defense minister, Ursula von der Leyen invested heavily in civil Business Consultants for the Bundeswehr. Maybe they came up with some good ideas. But whatever money they made certainly did not go into flight readiness, and we're talking double digit millions of euros per year. Let's see what AKK47 can come up with before she (presumably) upgrades to Bundeskanzler.

Von der Leyen and her consultants did came up with some good meassures (e.g. buying back former depots to increase the storage of spare parts), but it takes time for them to take effect.

Even the best and most professional pilots are not safe from making mistakes of their own. I've never heard of sabatoge in regards to the Rammstein accident and frankly, it sounds like some odd conspiracy theory to me. Even the famous american Blue Angels and Thunderbirds crash sometimes as happened multiple times in the past 2 years.

 

 

 

FCAS is being discussed here as well: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=243299

 

 

 

Von der Leyen and her consultants did came up with some good meassures (e.g. buying back former depots to increase the storage of spare parts), but it takes time for them to take effect.

Two Italian pilots, the officers Naldini and Nutarelli - later aces of the tricolor arrows dead in the implausible "accident" of Ramstein, a week before being questioned by the judge Prior on the massacre of Ustica

and a hypothesis of cover-up of the evidence on the ustica accident.

the nuttarelli plane was sabotaged.

Von der Leyen and her consultants did came up with some good meassures (e.g. buying back former depots to increase the storage of spare parts), but it takes time for them to take effect.

Interesting, I didn't know that. Thanks for the info! :thumbup:

Though it didn't say that this was actually suggested by the consultants in question, but I'll give them the benefit of a doubt. ;)

Two Italian pilots, the officers Naldini and Nutarelli - later aces of the tricolor arrows dead in the implausible "accident" of Ramstein, a week before being questioned by the judge Prior on the massacre of Ustica

That seems to warrant its own discussion thread, as it has fairly little to do with the topic at hand.

 

 

FRANCE AND GERMANY plan the new fighter then followed by SPAIN. FCAS.

While ITALY and DUTCH agrees with the UK for the new TEMPEST project.

And here in Belgium, once they can decide on a government we may get a decision on whether to get a Eurofighter or a F-35 to replace the F-16s

Then again they may just decide to keep the F-16 :)