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Quick update from AvioDev


JuanOscar

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Frankly, if I was a developer, I'd say absolutely nothing to the forum. The negativity is sometimes breathtakingly over the top. Aviodev have been quietly getting on with the CC, and to assume that silence means they're falling apart is simply absurd.

 

You can clearly see the difference between full time developers and part time ones. Both Aviodev and VEAO have been subject to some pretty wild and unsubstantiated accusations and comments here. The one thing both teams are up against is time. They have day jobs just like most of us, and then when they get home they have to carry out their dev work. They don't have the luxury of doing nothing but dev work - unlike RASBAM.

 

If you want constant hand holding, and weekly reports into progress, then you'll be very very sadly disappointed - due in no small part to the negativity rife on the forum.

 

Just let them get on with it. Leave them alone. Until you hear bad news, there is no bad news. "Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence".

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Forum activity should not be used to measure the state of a third party, they are busy developing.

 

I personally find the negativity disheartening, we are a niche community and we should be supportive if we want to see our hobby grow.

 

 

I will wait as I want to fly my CC. :)

Good luck aviodev.

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Forum activity should not be used to measure the state of a third party, they are busy developing.

 

AvioDev should probably help themselves a bit better though. We know they have day jobs, etc. but they're operating in a professional business world. If you say you're going to deliver something by X date and then you blow past that date completely this dents your professional image - especially when it's the first product you release.

 

At that point you should be going into damage control. If I was AvioDev I would have committed at the very least to a substantial update once a month outlining what was completed this month, what's left to do and a tentative completion window. This demonstrates to your customers that you recognise the issue & their frustrations and shows the steps you're taking to fix it. When you have a track of record of delivering finished products you don't necessarily have to do this kind of thing but when you're in AvioDev's situation you need to be a bit more proactive and it'll help them in the long run.

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They have kept us informed, we know they had delays, when they have something to share with us they do.

 

This is their first, I am sure they will learn from it and grow, my point is we should be supportive, to many experts with an opinion willing to drag third parties down without understanding the hard work that has gone into these aircraft we love so much.

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I don't see these kind of threads in LN, ED, Belsimtek or Razbam subforums. The products speak for themselfes. I don't believe that people are negative on the forums in general.

 

It's a good thing that issues like this gets recognized. That will lead to a much better user experience and a happier forum as a whole. Sweeping it under the rug won't help the developers to get better. Look at VEAO, they listen to the community and now we hopefully get a Hawk that lives up to the standards set by earlier modules (EFM, cockpit textures etc.).

The recent Hawk screenshots is a good example, everyone seemed very happy about those and gave VEAO great feedback.

 

Excuses like day-jobs etc. is acceptable when the module is a mod, not payware. Delays are common, but look at the changelog for the C-101 for the past year... And no, there is no sign on the webshop wich developers that has day-jobs. :doh:

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But can you honestly say, fanboyism aside, that Aviodev has lived up to expectations for a 60$ beta module since release? I would never complain about a freeware mod like A-4E. But when a dev asks for money, I also expect some responsibility towards buyers of that module.

 

I agree with BIGNEWY that we should be supportive. But we should be supportive of good developer behavior, not bad. As I wrote in an earlier post. I want somebody to step in and fix this situation, as we don't need more threads like this.

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You can clearly see the difference between full time developers and part time ones. Both Aviodev and VEAO have been subject to some pretty wild and unsubstantiated accusations and comments here. The one thing both teams are up against is time. They have day jobs just like most of us, and then when they get home they have to carry out their dev work. They don't have the luxury of doing nothing but dev work - unlike RAZBAM.

 

If you want constant hand holding, and weekly reports into progress, then you'll be very very sadly disappointed - due in no small part to the negativity rife on the forum.

 

Just let them get on with it. Leave them alone. Until you hear bad news, there is no bad news. "Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence".

 

Um, I just want to put this point up here. The moment you start charging full price for a product, you don't get to run back to the Modder standby of "It's not our real job!" If you're charging money like it's a real business, expect to get treated like one. And if you can't handle that, well then you're not cut out to sell things.

 

I'm not interested in getting involved in any drama with AvioDev, I haven't dropped any money on what they're selling, but you've got to stop telling people, who dropped cash on a product, that they're not allowed to get concerned a year and a half down the line with what they think is very little to show for it. All you do is poison the well for people considering their product in the future. A toxic fanbase in both directions isn't good, try not the be the cause of that toxicity on the other side of the equation.

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I don't see these kind of threads in LN, ED, Belsimtek or Razbam subforums

 

ED, BST (an offshoot of ED) and Razbam already have many years in the biz, so there is that.

 

LN had a very very bumpy start. There were many bad posts and such, and they learned from it, but it takes time.

 

AvioDev will get there, but you guys need to have a little more patience... What they are trying to do itsnt easy, but it will get easier as time goes on,I am sure they appreciate the anticipation for their offerings, but its not always helpful to whack them in the kneecaps and then kick them when they are down. They are still working hard, even if you dont always see it.

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Fair enough Sith. But my hard earned money has been in AvioDevs pocket for 1.5 years and I don't feel that this has been handled well. There has been a number of threads with complaints. AvioDev have answered them, but nothing happens. They might be working hard. We don't really know, do we? The changelogs for the past 1.5 years don't lie. I don't want to write bad things about devs on the forums. I buy almost every module that comes out. But here is just so much patience you can ask from a customer that bought this 60$ module 1.5 years years ago.

 

I love to see a Mirage F1, but changes has to be made. AvioDev needs a wakeup-call.

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Fair enough Sith. But my hard earned money has been in AvioDevs pocket for 1.5 years and I don't feel that this has been handled well. There has been a number of threads with complaints. AvioDev have answered them, but nothing happens. They might be working hard. We don't really know, do we? The changelogs for the past 1.5 years don't lie. I don't want to write bad things about devs on the forums. I buy almost every module that comes out. But here is just so much patience you can ask from a customer that bought this 60$ module 1.5 years years ago.

 

I love to see a Mirage F1, but changes has to be made. AvioDev needs a wakeup-call.

 

I'm not saying you cant be disappointed, and sharing our opinion in a constructive mature manner is fine even if its negative, but they did have some bumps out of their control, and they are working through them. They will get there.

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I hope that any future 3rd parties will understand when the first question asked of them will be the employment status of their staff.

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Fair enough Sith. But my hard earned money has been in AvioDevs pocket for 1.5 years and I don't feel that this has been handled well. There has been a number of threads with complaints. AvioDev have answered them, but nothing happens. They might be working hard. We don't really know, do we? The changelogs for the past 1.5 years don't lie. I don't want to write bad things about devs on the forums. I buy almost every module that comes out. But here is just so much patience you can ask from a customer that bought this 60$ module 1.5 years years ago.

 

I love to see a Mirage F1, but changes has to be made. AvioDev needs a wakeup-call.

 

Maybe as I have had the chance to help test with some of these third parties I see the situation differently, I want to be supportive even when things are difficult because that is the kind of guy I am, I want to help and support.

 

I do understand you want to express your opinion, you are upset about your perceived expectation's not being met. In the future consider if you should buy into a beta / pre release it may save you some heart ache if things don't go as planned, and then you will enjoy the module once it is fully released.

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I agree with the choice of some to be "Supportive" but not when it means to twist the things too much. Imho this isn't supportive.

 

If one is concern of his "investment" in a module or not sure if to buy it or not comments like:

 

-"Learn not to buy into beta"

-"They are doing it in their free time dude"

-"Two frigging totally uberly different planes dude for 60 bucks!"

 

Are not supportive. You may think they are but they aren't. There are many very polite people (maybe I am not one of them) that will ask a question take the answer and be gone with it. They will never tell that they are not buying or never buy again. Because telling someone to open the eyes before buying something is not "supportive" for that business no matter how much you think it is. You tell me that... I don't buy nothing from you. NOTHING! The polite guy will just close the page and go without any comment.

 

Also, most people around here know to understand the differences between 2 versions of a plane and two different planes. Examples:

 

L-39C and L-39 ZA. Very different versions of the same plane.

Su-25(A) and SU-25T. same

Su-27 Su 33 Su 34 Different planes/versions of same plane family

Su-27 and F-15C. VERY Different planes.

 

When someone is keeping jamming the C101 versions as being different planes when they are developed together for DCS BECUASE they are versions of same plane and it was easier (at least on paper) to build them he just tries to fool me. So I won't buy. Again... the polite guy will simple go.

 

 

Tirak explained perfectly why "free time developing" is not an excuse/argument. I just want to add that again this statement is enough on its own to not make me and others to buy such module.

 

So to all the fans that are trying to be supportive. Try something else please. Really... think of something else really supportive.

 

P.S. For the sake of DCS I also want these devs to recover but they need to throttle up more. What was done till now is simply not enough. Is like flying... I understand that is all the engine can do... but Stall speed is Stall speed.


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So to all the fans that are trying to be supportive. Try something else please.

 

With all due respect, if the supportive side isn't allowed to tell you how to post, you certainly can't tell them how to post in response.

 

What it comes down to is this, if you are going to post negative or positive comments about anything on this forum, they have to be constructive, mature, on-topic, and not redundant.

 

It's as simple as that.

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What it comes down to is this, if you are going to post negative or positive comments about anything on this forum, they have to be constructive, mature, on-topic, and not redundant.

 

It's as simple as that.

 

How is 'Don't buy a beta product.' constructive, mature, or not redundant?

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How is 'Don't buy a beta product.' constructive, mature, or not redundant?

 

It may be redundant in the case of all these threads where the same things are said back and forth over and over using different words, but it is very mature and constructive, it is very sound advice, if you arent interested in the hassles, the update process and all the other things that come with early access purchases, you should wait. Its obviously too late for those that bought into this beta, but it could very easily happen with something else, development times vary, getting in early on the action comes with those kinds of risks.

 

Also I would like to point out I was directing this at both sides of the fence, so you should be aware of that as well before getting offended.

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"But it's a beta!" ... this is (over)used as an excuse for everything that could go wrong with a module. "Don't buy a beta if you are not happy with how long it takes" ("it" being release or alternatively just "next bug fix patch")

 

A beta is not a way to get away with everything. And the supposed upcoming change in terminology, calling it "early access", doesn't make it much better, imo.

 

(disclaimer: I am not implying that Aviodev is trying "to get away with it/something/whatever", but some folks here seem to understand the term "beta" that way)

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How is 'Don't buy a beta product.' constructive, mature, or not redundant?

 

I did not say don't buy, I said "consider if you should" there is a difference

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"But it's a beta!" ... this is (over)used as an excuse for everything that could go wrong with a module. "Don't buy a beta if you are not happy with how long it takes" ("it" being release or alternatively just "next bug fix patch")

 

A beta is not a way to get away with everything. And the supposed upcoming change in terminology, calling it "early access", doesn't make it much better, imo.

 

(disclaimer: I am not implying that Aviodev is trying "to get away with it/something/whatever", but some folks here seem to understand the term "beta" that way)

 

I'm sorry, I am missing your point honestly... saying to not buy a module in beta is the perfect way to avoid the delays of beta. Whether or not a beta period is longer than it should be is one thing, its in no way criminal or evil, its purely irritating and frustrating to those that expect it faster.

 

I am really not fond of you accusing anyone of trying to get away with something because their beta is taking long than you expected. They had issues, some out of their control, they are probably the least happy with the development time, yes, even more so than any of you... but accusing them of using the beta term as a cover is just silly.

 

Plain and simple, they are a new team, they have had a bumpy start, they had to re-tool on the fly... you can use this as a learning experience, but coming here and making accusations or saying over and over the same things isnt getting anyone anywhere. And again, it goes for both sides, these threads are pretty much useless after the second page.

 

Honestly. I am looking at this thread title and this is simple off the rails off topic now. You guys have said your bit. I dont see any need to carry this further.


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