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MW 50 or GM-1


JG13Wulf

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Additional C3 or nothing.

This was choosen to explicitly define that the mission requires additional fuel, because the additional tank shifts CoG rearwards making the plane very unfriendly.

ok. thanks for the clarification. it makes sense to me.

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Yes I agree. There must be mistake.

 

Someone get me this.

You can find on page 61 there is a performance sheet and they seems to talk about GM1 (for A8 ).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4xitrrBUDsYajNkNUg0QlFFWms/view

 

EDIt : See page 2 and end of page 3 too:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/td284.pdf

 

But can't read it.

 

If you look, lot of test were made with C3. So logic that the Fw 190 in DCS is design with it. But hope they don't just work the A8 with only the C3 in mind.


Edited by JG13~Wulf
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I believe the module description says it's available in the F-8 we will also eventually get, but agree wording there maybe not the clearest possible.

[...]

I could not find any official material or response from ED that stated an F-version was even in development, let alone be included with Anton.

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I could not find any official material or response from ED that stated an F-version was even in development, let alone be included with Anton.
While in development Coyote told us after all his seek for information (it's not just cosmetic, a few changes are needed) when he found all the required data, but you're right some late info might be misleading.

 

nobody wants F8?
This is the oldest reference I could find, that's Coyote answering somebody saying a cockpit panel pic was from F-8, not A-8.

 

 

The A-8 version of the Fw 190 entered production in February 1944, and it was powered by a BMW 801 D-2 radial engine. In addition to excellent low- and medium-altitude performance, the engine was also very rugged. Along with the F-8 version, it also had thicker armor around the engine. The engine also received the C3 injection system that provided an emergency boost of 1,980 PS in short durations.
I believe that late paragraph means F-8 only, from the module description. Why would they even make reference to F-8 if we weren't to get it?

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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Subject: Inspection of the GM-1 installation in Fw 190 A-8

1) A GM-1 system in fuselage and engine of Nr. 1581 installed similar to Fw 190 V 47 was inspected by the attendees. The requirements laid down by test center Rechlin in the memo of 16.2.1944 and the amendment of 23.2.1944 during the inspection of the prototype installation in V 47 are met. Opposed to that the pressure gauge has been omitted (protocol Nr. 4 of travel staff for desophistication of 3.4.1944).

 

The following points were discussed in todays inspection:

 

a. It will be tried to improve the accessibility of the locks in the vertical fastening strap.

b. The GM-1 line on the tank with the upper connection is not accessible. Company AGO will try to install the tank with the line installed.

At the same time the company AGO will add two removable hand sized access holes in the upper fuselage cover, starting with the next contract.

c. Insulation of the connections which are unaccessible behind frame 1, will not be insulated. In front of frame 1 all connections points are to be insulated.

d. Prior to the installation of the tank the oxygen bottles have to be removed. Starting with the new contract AGO will install the 3 oxygen bottles on the cover in the lower fuselage shell in the same was as it is done with the Ta 152.

e. The DKP 2 has to be used as the switch in the left instrument panel.

f. The continuity switch as demanded by the test center has been installed on the throttle lever using the end moment switch 19-3830 B and is alright. FW will clarify availability.

g. The enrichement help 9-0-447 as developed by BMW touches the Kommandogerät oil return line. The mount for this line has to be lenghtened by 10 mm. BMW will do this.

 

2. The scope of delivery Fw 190 A-8 was defined and signed on the RLM-scope of delivery sheet BNA(?) L.190.3.

Likewise, the scope of delivery sheet BNA(?) 190.2 for the Fw 190 A-9 with BMW 801 F (TH) engine in the first version, i.e. version 1, was defined and signed.

 

3. The still missing reference documents for the system in the Fw 190 A-8 will be available to the company AGO from 6.4.44 on in the specified version.

 

4. The approval and test specification for the GM-1 system in Fw 190 A-8 was discussed and signed by the attending parties.

 

5. Company AGO will by 8.4.44 notify about the introduction of the GM-1 system into serial production of the A-8, after the company BMW has confirmed the possible deliveries of the complete system in accordance with the above scope of delivery sheet and the announced delivery figures.

 

Representatives of the test center and the RLM were not present. The protocol has been dictated in the presence of the attendees.

 

 

Oschersleben(Bode), 4.4.1944

Klemm Fw/Fr

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Short term options for a performance increase of the Fw 190 with 801 D through engine modifications based on the status of March 1944.

 

1.) Explanations for the chart: Altitude performance 801 D and F (page 2 and annex)

2.) Performance gains and conditions of usage for engine performance increases for various operational cases for the Fw 190

A) as fighter bomber (page 3)

B) as tactical support (page 4)

C) as fighter (page 4)

I. boost increase

II. GM I

(Basis for engine data: internal operating instruction BMW JB Nr. 3064)

 

1.) Explanations for the chart: "Altitude performance 801 D and F".

(chart see annex)

Blue line: Normal 801 D, climb and combat power

Red dotted line: 801 D take off and emergency power.

The possible hp-gains resulting from the boost increase from 1.42 ata to 1.58 ata in first charger gear and 1.65 ata in second charger gear are the red areas.

Green dotted line: This line shows a power boost resulting from the methanol injection, which was planned previously but not realized by BMW for the 801 D.

Yellow and brown line: Climb and combat, and takeoff and emergency power for the 801 F engine.

A comparative assessment of the plots shows that the performance gain of the 801 D through the increased boost is the most remarkable, but that the 801 F engine still has to be required with the highest level of urgency.

This is even more so, since BMW intents a power increase similar to the one on the D-engine through increased boost and methanol injection for the F-engine (letter of BMW to Focke-Wulf dated 8.2.44).

2.) Performance gains and conditions of usage for engine performance increases for various operational cases for the Fw 190

 

Operational case

A. Long range fighter bomber

 

Boost increase from 1.42 ata to 1.65 ata

Simultaneously C3-injection 65 l/min

(Usage of increased emergency power prohibited in second charger gear)

 

Usage: 3 x 10 min per mission with 10 min cooldown at combat power.

Performance gain: (see shaded areas in plot below)

Availability: to be installed continuously by A.A.. Parts available.

 

B. Tactical support

Same as longe range fighter bomber!

 

C. Fighter

I. Boost increase

Values not yet approved by Rechlin at the moment.

Boost increase from 1.42 to

1.58 in first charger gear

1.65 in second charger gear

No C3 injection!

Usage:

At all altitudes in level flight and climbs 10 min permitted. In climbs limit use if possible.

Performance gain:

a) Speed:

b) Climb performance:

The considerable total gain (shaded area) comes from 2 factors:

a) from 2400 to 2700 revolutions

b) at 2700 increased boost with 10 min usage (not for climbs from sea level to ceiling!)

Availability:

Venting tubes and blinds available from BMW from March onwards

II. GM I

Usage about 20 min at altitudes above 8000 m at 80 gr/s.

a) Climb gain:

b) Speed gain:

Availability:

GM 1-installation possible from Fw 190 A-8 onwards. Factory supply starting April 1944, limited to Ago

Supply of GM 1 kits still open, negotiations RLM - Braunschweig

 

 

Eilsen, 15.3.1944

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Short term options for a performance increase of the Fw 190 with 801 D through engine modifications based on the status of March 1944.

 

1.) Explanations for the chart: Altitude performance 801 D and F (page 2 and annex)

2.) Performance gains and conditions of usage for engine performance increases for various operational cases for the Fw 190

A) as fighter bomber (page 3)

B) as tactical support (page 4)

C) as fighter (page 4)

I. boost increase

II. GM I

(Basis for engine data: internal operating instruction BMW JB Nr. 3064)

 

1.) Explanations for the chart: "Altitude performance 801 D and F".

(chart see annex)

Blue line: Normal 801 D, climb and combat power

Red dotted line: 801 D take off and emergency power.

The possible hp-gains resulting from the boost increase from 1.42 ata to 1.58 ata in first charger gear and 1.65 ata in second charger gear are the red areas.

Green dotted line: This line shows a power boost resulting from the methanol injection, which was planned previously but not realized by BMW for the 801 D.

Yellow and brown line: Climb and combat, and takeoff and emergency power for the 801 F engine.

A comparative assessment of the plots shows that the performance gain of the 801 D through the increased boost is the most remarkable, but that the 801 F engine still has to be required with the highest level of urgency.

This is even more so, since BMW intents a power increase similar to the one on the D-engine through increased boost and methanol injection for the F-engine (letter of BMW to Focke-Wulf dated 8.2.44).

2.) Performance gains and conditions of usage for engine performance increases for various operational cases for the Fw 190

 

Operational case

A. Long range fighter bomber

 

Boost increase from 1.42 ata to 1.65 ata

Simultaneously C3-injection 65 l/min

(Usage of increased emergency power prohibited in second charger gear)

 

Usage: 3 x 10 min per mission with 10 min cooldown at combat power.

Performance gain: (see shaded areas in plot below)

Availability: to be installed continuously by A.A.. Parts available.

 

B. Tactical support

Same as longe range fighter bomber!

 

C. Fighter

I. Boost increase

Values not yet approved by Rechlin at the moment.

Boost increase from 1.42 to

1.58 in first charger gear

1.65 in second charger gear

No C3 injection!

Usage:

At all altitudes in level flight and climbs 10 min permitted. In climbs limit use if possible.

Performance gain:

a) Speed:

b) Climb performance:

The considerable total gain (shaded area) comes from 2 factors:

a) from 2400 to 2700 revolutions

b) at 2700 increased boost with 10 min usage (not for climbs from sea level to ceiling!)

Availability:

Venting tubes and blinds available from BMW from March onwards

II. GM I

Usage about 20 min at altitudes above 8000 m at 80 gr/s.

a) Climb gain:

b) Speed gain:

Availability:

GM 1-installation possible from Fw 190 A-8 onwards. Factory supply starting April 1944, limited to Ago

Supply of GM 1 kits still open, negotiations RLM - Braunschweig

 

 

Eilsen, 15.3.1944

 

 

:thumbup:

 

I hope it's clear for once and for all.

 

No MW50 for BMW801!

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:thumbup:

 

I hope it's clear for once and for all.

 

No MW50 for BMW801!

 

(source "Kurt Tank: Focke-Wulf's designer and test pilot" de Wolfgang Wagner)

 

Fw190A-8/R2 performances

 

Note: Fw190A-8/R1: 4 MG 151/20 cannons installed in under wing blisters. The A-8/R2 replaced the outer wing 20 mm cannon with a 30 mm MK 108 cannon.

 

Engine BMW 801D2, output 1272 kW (1730 hp)

Weight (empty+armor) = 2743+157=2900kg

Fuel* +Oil + Crew + Load** = 472 + 50 + 80 +848 = 1450 kg

So take off weight = 4350kg

 

(*) fuselage tank = 233+292 liter + supplemental tank 115 liter (long range or MW50) = 640liter or 472kg

(**) 2xMk108 & 2x55 rounds + 2xMG151 & 2x250 rounds + 2xMG131 & 2x475 rounds + MW50 system, empty long range + equipment = (176+65) + (84+100) + (59+81) + 50 +233 =848kg

 

Max speed 635km/h at 6200m (560km/h at sea level, 2700rpm)

Cruise speed 585km/h at 6200m (500km/h at sea level, 2300rpm)

Climb rate 10m/s at 5500m (13m/s at sea level)

Service ceiling 9600m

 

Range 615km (at 300m and 2300rpm), max flight time 1.20h

Range 695km (at 5000m and 2300rpm), max flight time 1.32h

Range 985km (at 5000m and 2100rpm), max flight time 2.02h

 

Take off run 500m (take off run to 20m 720m)

Landing run 500m

Landing speed 168km/h

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Wow, and the max speed is with MW50? Impressive...:megalol:

 

 

I'm out, i'm done, getting tired.

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Guy I don't have the test data with the MW 50 on it. I'm sorry I'm not here to make ED job !

But there are proof that Fw 190 A used MW 50. As DCS want to "fully simulate" planes. It should be investigate.

 

Note at first I come with a question ! Not with telling I have all the Luftwaffe information on it.

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But there are proof that Fw 190 A used MW 50.

Where?

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While in development Coyote told us after all his seek for information (it's not just cosmetic, a few changes are needed) when he found all the required data, but you're right some late info might be misleading.

[...]

This is the oldest reference I could find, that's Coyote answering somebody saying a cockpit panel pic was from F-8, not A-8.

[...]

I believe that late paragraph means F-8 only, from the module description. Why would they even make reference to F-8 if we weren't to get it?

[...]

Thanks for the info. You are right, it can indeed be interpreted that way.

If ED are not planning to bring the Fritz with the Anton, they should definitely make the module description less ambigious.

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Where?

 

Just read about Fw 190 everywhere. Check Fw 190 and MW 50 you will find informations.

There was Fw 190 with this system. I can't proof it with test flight data because I don't know where to look after them (the one I post are the one some people send me).

 

MW 50 was a Rüstsatz. In the A8 it's a modification of the GM1 installation to replace it with the MW50.

 

Rüstsatz mean field modification (the eaxact meaning is that the plane didn't need to go back to factory to be modified but it was an "official" modification).

The Umrüstsatz were factory modification (to heavy to be made on field).

That the difference between Fw 190 A8/R... and Fw 190 A8/U...

 

So I think there must be the information needed for the MW 50 under this designation. But again, I don't know where to find those. But it should exist.

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Most probably ED has trouble in properly translating (and interpreting) the original documents they have. If ED doesn't have the original documents (first source) then everything is prone to error.

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Most probably ED has trouble in properly translating (and interpreting) the original documents they have. If ED doesn't have the original documents (first source) then everything is prone to error.
ED have a German native engineer translating German for them since first WWII modules times. They asked for it years ago in these forums.

 

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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ED have a German native engineer translating German for them since first WWII modules times. They asked for it years ago in these forums.

 

 

S!

 

Problem is that you can't be 'native' in 2 languages.. This leaves room for misinterpreting some data.

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Problem is that you can't be 'native' in 2 languages.. This leaves room for misinterpreting some data.
IIRC he was actually German, and engineer so he could know technical data correctly. Don't know if he's still the same guy but I guess they have somebody as they were pretty aware of possible translation problems.

 

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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From Wiki (I know :music_whistling:):

 

 

"Fittings for MW 50 first appeared on the BMW 801D in 1942, but it never went into production for this engine because the cylinder heads developed micro-cracks when MW 50 was used."

 

 

But...

 

 

"The 801D also included the ability to spray gasoline into the supercharger[2] (the Erhöhte Notleistung [increased Emergency Performance] system), in place of the MW 50. While this was not as effective, it did increase boost without the complexity of the additional tanking and plumbing"

 

 

And...

 

 

"While GM-1 saw little use in the second half of the war, the Focke-Wulf Ta 152H, which had been developed as a dedicated high-altitude interceptor, also received a GM-1 system to provide it with superior performance at high altitude. The Ta 152H was one of the few designs to support both GM-1 and MW 50."

 

 

I know this is no proof of anything, but still..

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This was talked about before the EA already, i quote Yo-Yo here:

Your sources are wrong regarding "always C3" or you misinterpret them. If you take a look at the Teil 7 Flugzeug-Handbuch you can see how this system works. There is no signs of additional injection, but there is a mentioning that all planes equipped with this system are to be marked with a yellow circle at the certain place. So, one can take a look at the WWII photos to determine if the certain plane had WEP.

So, the facts are that not all A8 planes had this system and the most common sytem was dry, without C3 injection.

By the way, I asked Erich Brunotte if his A8 had any WEP system, and the answer was negative.

 

As far as I was told, WEP mostly used to compensate weight and drag incease of the special modifications of A8 rather than to enhance clean fighter.

 

And, finally, what your sources tell about the reason, why it was 1.58 at 1st gear and 1.65 at the second?

 

Anyway, nothing has prohibited to consider that the plane in DCS can not have this system... regarding the fact that it is modelled from the start.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3940314&postcount=23

 

Thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=242623

 

So, if anybody can come up with a better source than the "Teil 7 Flugzeug-Handbuch" - Part 7 Flight Manual - and an former FW190 A8 pilot i think ED is willing to change it but don't expect them to do it because you read about it on the web or in book. Or am i mistaken and you are not talking about the same thing discussed in the older thread?

 

:beer:


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This was talked about before the EA already, i quote Yo-Yo here:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3940314&postcount=23

 

Thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=242623

 

So, if anybody can come up with a better source than the "Teil 7 Flugzeug-Handbuch" - Part 7 Flight Manual - and an former FW190 A8 pilot i think ED is willing to change it but don't expect them to do it because you read about it on the web or in book. Or am i mistaken and you are not talking about the same thing discussed in the older thread?

 

:beer:

 

 

:thumbup:

 

 

 

And i can recommend 2 books on this subject:

 

 

Peter Rodeike: Focke Wulf Jagdflugzeug - FW190A Fw190D Ta152

Dietmar Hermann: Focke Wulf Fw 190 F und G

 

 

Both authors uses documents from FW, BMW and Rechlin.

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http://www.deutscheluftwaffe.com/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/f/FockeWulf/Fw%20190/284_Fw_190_A_8.pdf

 

Baubeschreibung Nr. 284

Jagdflugzeug Fw 190 A-8

Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau G.m.b.H. Bremen

 

PDF-Seite 5/Page 5

 

Zusatzbehälter im Rumpf: Aufgrund der Forderung nach einer Reichweitenvergrößerung ohne Beeinträchtigung der Außenaerodynamik wurde die Einbaumöglichkeit eines geschützten Zusatzbehälters im Rumpfhinterteil geschaffen. Ab August - September 1944 kommen sämtliche Flugzeuge der Baureihe A-8 mit Zusatzbehälter zur Auslieferung. Anstelle des Behälters von 115 l Inhalt läßt sich im Bedarfsfall ein ungeschützter Wasser-Methanol-Behälter (MW 50) von 115 l bzw. 140 l Inhalt oder ein GM 1 - Behälter von 85 l Inhalt einbauen. Zur Zeit ist jedoch für die Großserie der Fw 180 A-8 nur der Einbau des zusätzlichen Kraftstoffbehälters eingeplant.

 

Additional tank in the fuselage: Due to the demand for an increase in range without impairing the external aerodynamics, the installation of a protected additional tank in the rear fuselage section was made possible. From August to September 1944, all aircraft of the A-8 series were delivered with an additional tank. If necessary, an unprotected water-methanol tank (MW 50) with a capacity of 115 l or 140 l or a GM 1 tank with a capacity of 85 l can be installed instead of the 115 l tank. At present, however, only the installation of the additional fuel tank is planned for the Fw 180 A-8 series.

 

PDF-Seite 6/Page 6

 

Erhöhte Motorleistung: Ab Juli 1944 werden sämtliche Flugzeuge der Baureihe Fw 190 A-8 mit "erhöhter Notleistung" ausgerüstet. Durch Eingriff in den Ladedruckregler wird der Ladedruck der Start- und Notleistung im Bodenladerbetrieb von 1,42 ata auf 1,58 ata, im Höhenladerbetrieb von 1,42 ata auf 1,65 ata heraufgesetzt. Hierdurch wird ein Geschwindigkeitsgewinn bis zu 22 km/h bei Bodenladerbetrieb und bis zu 25 km/h im Höhenladerbetrieb erzielt; (sie Flugleistungen Bl. 15). Die höchstzulässige Betriebsdauer für erhöhte Notleistung ist aus thermischen Gründen auf 10 Minuten begrenzt.

 

Increased engine power: From July 1944, all aircraft of the Fw 190 A-8 series are equipped with "increased emergency power". By intervening in the boost pressure regulator, the boost pressure of the start and emergency power is increased from 1.42 ata to 1.58 ata in ground loader operation and from 1.42 ata to 1.65 ata in high-altitude loader operation. This results in a speed gain of up to 22 km/h in ground loader operation and up to 25 km/h in high-altitude loader operation (see page 15 for flight performance). The maximum permissible operating time for increased emergency performance is limited to 10 minutes for thermal reasons.

 

GM1-Anlage: Der Einbau einer GM1-Anlage anstelle des Zusatzbehälters im Rumpf ist grundsätzlich möglich, jedoch für die Baureihe Fw 190 A-8 nicht gefordert. Der Einsatz erfolgt in Höhen ab 8 km und ergibt einen Geschwindigkeitsgewinn von ~ 58 km/h bei Steig- und Kampfleistung (siehe Flugleistungen Bl. 16)

 

GM1 system: The installation of a GM1 system instead of the additional tank in the fuselage is basically possible, but not required for the Fw 190 A-8 series. It is used at altitudes of 8 km and above and results in a speed gain of ~ 58 km/h with climb and combat performance (see flight performance chart 16).

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Thank you birkenmoped for supporting the Erhöhte Notleistung boost system. Maybe an original document directly from Luftwaffe will change mind of those that deny even its sole existence.

 

Here another source - http://lexpev.nl/downloads/fw190a8.pdf

 

Your sources are wrong regarding "always C3" or you misinterpret them. If you take a look at the Teil 7 Flugzeug-Handbuch you can see how this system works. There is no signs of additional injection, but there is a mentioning that all planes equipped with this system are to be marked with a yellow circle at the certain place. So, one can take a look at the WWII photos to determine if the certain plane had WEP.

So, the facts are that not all A8 planes had this system and the most common sytem was dry, without C3 injection.

By the way, I asked Erich Brunotte if his A8 had any WEP system, and the answer was negative.

 

As far as I was told, WEP mostly used to compensate weight and drag incease of the special modifications of A8 rather than to enhance clean fighter.

 

And, finally, what your sources tell about the reason, why it was 1.58 at 1st gear and 1.65 at the second?

 

Anyway, nothing has prohibited to consider that the plane in DCS can not have this system... regarding the fact that it is modelled from the start.

 

To answer some questions or statements from YoYos post again.

The part about C3 fuel was that BMW 801 D-2 had to use C3 at all times in general. Wasnt meant specificaly for the boost.

 

Why different ATAs(1,58/1,65) at different gears of supercharger? Because the supercharger cannot sustain the boost in low gear.

 

The main reason for using the rear fuel tank behind pilot and filling it with C3 fuel together with the boost system was the increased consumption.

 

Why Erich didnt have any WEP system? There can be alot of explanations. The most probable is that he simply didnt have the improved D-2 engine that could sustain the Erhöhte Notleistung. It required stronger pistons, better valves and other parts.

This applied mainly for early A-8 planes equippped with older "revision" of engine approximately between February and July 1944

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Erhöhte Motorleistung: Ab Juli 1944 werden sämtliche Flugzeuge der Baureihe Fw 190 A-8 mit "erhöhter Notleistung" ausgerüstet. Durch Eingriff in den Ladedruckregler wird der Ladedruck der Start- und Notleistung im Bodenladerbetrieb von 1,42 ata auf 1,58 ata, im Höhenladerbetrieb von 1,42 ata auf 1,65 ata heraufgesetzt. Hierdurch wird ein Geschwindigkeitsgewinn bis zu 22 km/h bei Bodenladerbetrieb und bis zu 25 km/h im Höhenladerbetrieb erzielt; (sie Flugleistungen Bl. 15). Die höchstzulässige Betriebsdauer für erhöhte Notleistung ist aus thermischen Gründen auf 10 Minuten begrenzt.

 

Increased engine power: From July 1944, all aircraft of the Fw 190 A-8 series are equipped with "increased emergency power". By intervening in the boost pressure regulator, the boost pressure of the start and emergency power is increased from 1.42 ata to 1.58 ata in ground loader operation and from 1.42 ata to 1.65 ata in high-altitude loader operation. This results in a speed gain of up to 22 km/h in ground loader operation and up to 25 km/h in high-altitude loader operation (see page 15 for flight performance). The maximum permissible operating time for increased emergency performance is limited to 10 minutes for thermal reasons.

 

 

Here are few photos which show A8 from july 44 onward with indication of "erhöhter Notleistung":

 

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=211809&stc=1&d=1560342360

a8nn.thumb.jpg.27c23791ac772ca146502c2411b90aaf.jpg

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Was just painted on I believe. Yo-Yo mentioned it earlier and it is also referred to in the Flugzeughandbuch.

9./JG27

 

"If you can't hit anything, it's because you suck. If you get shot down, it's because you suck. You and me, we know we suck, and that makes it ok." - Worst person in all of DCS

 

"In the end, which will never come, we will all be satisifed... we must fight them on forum, we will fight them on reddit..." - Dunravin

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