Journey of a new pilot...

I am a perfectionist by nature...always have been, always will be. I have a strong need (read: obsession) with having to master anything I do. My entering into DCS is no different...I fully intend on being a name people respect when they see my enter into a server. However, I am quickly learning that DCS won't be one of those things that I just master quickly or easily. So, this thread is where I turn to the vet pilots for help :helpsmilie:

Let me preface the below with this: I am pretty certain I have watched every F15 dogfight on YouTube. I study them. I have TacView and I study my dogfights...I'm trying to learn what I should be analyzing. I've watched the entire Dogfighting series on YouTube of the "best dogfights in history" to see what the real life legends did. I have Shaw's book on order. I am in the process of trying to memorize the maneuvers detailed on the Wiki page for "Basic fighter maneuvers". Still, I know there are some guys on here that can help to simplify and send me down the right path.

What are some key things I need to know for dogfighting? What are the common pitfalls? What speeds do I want to avoid (i.e. avoid going above this, never drop below this)? I know most things will be learned through hours of practice and experience, but having some do's and dont's framed up will undoubtedly help me get started.

I have TacView and I will use this thread to load some ACMI's up to solicit advise soon. I am also looking into finding a free recording software so that I can add some video of my dogfights for critiquing from the vet pilots here. I've seen that done in a few threads here and I think it could really help me.

I will use this thread to consolidate my "I need help" posts over time, instead of cluttering the board with multiple threads. For now, to get me started, any insight or words of wisdom you can give would be appreciated.

I don't have any advice for dog fighting, sorry, but for your recording software inquiry, you might want to check out GeForce Shadow Play. It is completely free....if you have an Nvidia card that is in the 600 series or higher. Hope this helps, good luck becoming the best:thumbup:

My biggest question at the moment is this: In every single YouTube dogfight I watch with a F15, the pilot is able to gracefully float around in an area, doing tight tucking turns and transferring K and P energy in his flight while following his foes flight. When I do this I either a) blackout from the G's, or more often b) start spinning out of control. Am I not using my rudders well or what? This one is seriously driving me insane and has been all day.

If I keep my speed up higher, I overshoot (in the videos, their speed is always low so I assume that's correct, around 200-250kts).

FWIW, I am flying a 2 on 1 dogfight: me in a F15, the AI set to Excellent in a Su-27 and Mig-29.

I don't have any advice for dog fighting, sorry, but for your recording software inquiry, you might want to check out GeForce Shadow Play. It is completely free....if you have an Nvidia card that is in the 600 series or higher. Hope this helps, good luck becoming the best:thumbup:

Thank you, sir! I appreciate the tip, but unfortunately I have an 280x (AMD) card. I'll keep checking around, there is bound to be some sort of decent recording freeware out there :thumbup:

Speed wise you want to be around 400-450 for corner speed. If you pitch back too hard you will stall a wing and start bank/rolling. Blacking out from G's your probably going too fast and pulling back too hard. You need to find a nice medium ground there.

I bet you were watching dogfights with SFM and now trying to do the same with the PFM. No wonder it won't work. You want to be somewhere around 0.9M on the merge. Speed management is way more important than ever, if you fall below 250 knots you'll usually have no chance to recover until you finish the fight. Pulling technique is very important now, you don't want to immediately snap the stick since that'll cause you to spin. When you're getting near stall speed you can help it with rudders.

The book is great but it all comes with practice. If you're as dedicated as you say I'd recommend joining a virtual squadron.

Welcome! Nice to see that much motivation from a new comer.

I'd recommend reading Shaw's book, especially 1on1 similar and dissimilar A/C.

But before, you'd first need to master the new F-15C flight model, try all the bread-and-butter BFM moves, also, get comfortable enough at transitioning from one another. That's a good starting point IMO. Don't watch RL videos too much and try to focus on the SIM if you want to get good at DCS. Good luck :)

Best advice?

Practice, practice and - practice.

One basic thing is to keep track of the bandit visually. If you don't know where he is you can't maneuver for better position against him. This requires you to fly while looking mostly at the bandit instead of the HUD which takes practice. Against human opponent it's especially important as you need to know immediately when he's changing his plans.

You should know how to get the maximum performance out of your aircraft which means digging through performance charts. Some basic points of interest are optimum speeds for sustained turns at different altitudes and optimal climb speed schedule.

Regarding optimal fighting speed it depends. You should read some theory about one circle and two circle fights to get the basic idea. Basically in one circle fight maximizing your turn rate is irrelevant and minimizing turn radius is everything while in two circle it's just the opposite. You maximize turn rate by turning at the optimum sustained turn speed because if you bleed your speed right in the beginning you might gain angles fast initially but would be stuck with poor turn rate for the majority of the turn. Turn radius is minimized simply by minimizing flying speed ie. flying near stall speed. Most often you end up with one circle fight ie. a slow fight as the slower flying bandit usually manages to keep itself inside the faster ones turn radius forcing him to slow down also. When you add third dimension it gets more complicated as you can use corkscrew maneuvers like rolling scissor and displacement rolls to keep up your speed and still gain a shooting position on a slower and tighter turning bandit.

One of the distinctive skills of scary skilled online aces I have seen in action is gunnery skills. They will shoot you down from pretty much any aspect and situation they get you in their sights (this with WW2 planes). This kind of skill simplifies tactics a lot as you are no longer concerned about getting into enemys six but just turning your guns towards him. With modern fighters gunnery is easy with rapid rate of fire, high muzzle velocity, real time lead calculating sights and relatively easy handling characteristics of the planes but still with practice you can make harder shots that you couldn't make otherwise.

Thanks for all the responses guys. They are very helpful and have served to validate some of my previous thoughts.

I had been using .9 mach as my target turn speed and trying to speed speed around 400 in general...I had picked up that 250 was my "oh sh!t" speed too, so good to to know I am on the right track. Also, Blaze, as I kept looking at the YouTube upload dates I kept realizing all the videos were pre-AFM, so I was wondering if that is what the old "flying on rails" comments were about (I just got DCS a week ago, so I missed all that)? That is really useful to me so that I can focus more on learning my own way of flying with the new AFM instead of trying to emulate the flight I saw in those videos.

Again, all very helpful comments, thanks. I will get some TacView stuff up tonight after work, maybe that will help to focus where I should focus first.

Thanks for all the responses guys. They are very helpful and have served to validate some of my previous thoughts.

 

I had been using .9 mach as my target turn speed and trying to speed speed around 400 in general...I had picked up that 250 was my "oh sh!t" speed too, so good to to know I am on the right track. Also, Blaze, as I kept looking at the YouTube upload dates I kept realizing all the videos were pre-AFM, so I was wondering if that is what the old "flying on rails" comments were about (I just got DCS a week ago, so I missed all that)? That is really useful to me so that I can focus more on learning my own way of flying with the new AFM instead of trying to emulate the flight I saw in those videos.

 

Again, all very helpful comments, thanks. I will get some TacView stuff up tonight after work, maybe that will help to focus where I should focus first.

Yes every F-15 video that is not 1.2.8 Beta or 1.2.8 has the wrong physics. It's probably best to ignore early 1.2.8 beta videos as those would mostly be people learning AFM as well as the AFM being unoptimized.

To add to some of the stuff already mentioned, don't forget to try to mess around with the F-15's AAQ modes. Get familiar with their fields of view and how long it takes for them to generate a lock. It's not always instant and if you're too hasty you can end up pulling your nose away from a target before you get a lock. This may have been covered in some of the videos you've watched, but it's still good to get some first hand experience.

Bushmanny said well.

On the other hand dogfight, in modern air combat is not primary desired skill. With modern fighters such is F-15C you should study BVR, using radars, sensors ... classic dogfight is last resort. But I'm not an expert.

If you want to enjoy in classic dogfight I recommend you to try some WWII sim, or wait for DCS WWII.

Before going into further study, it is recommended to read manual from DCS. Every module has detailed manual.

To share your flight, experienced pilots, prefers saved tracks here on DCS forum. So, maybe there is no need to upload videos on youtube. Saved tracks should be enough.

Good luck!

Thanks for all the responses guys. They are very helpful and have served to validate some of my previous thoughts.

 

I had been using .9 mach as my target turn speed and trying to speed speed around 400 in general...I had picked up that 250 was my "oh sh!t" speed too, so good to to know I am on the right track. Also, Blaze, as I kept looking at the YouTube upload dates I kept realizing all the videos were pre-AFM, so I was wondering if that is what the old "flying on rails" comments were about (I just got DCS a week ago, so I missed all that)? That is really useful to me so that I can focus more on learning my own way of flying with the new AFM instead of trying to emulate the flight I saw in those videos.

 

Again, all very helpful comments, thanks. I will get some TacView stuff up tonight after work, maybe that will help to focus where I should focus first.

I agree. Starting with F-15C is maybe inconvenient. F-15C is still in beta. Learning on incomplete product is not easy. You will never know if certain behavior is bug, or you didn't done something correctly.

I recommend you to start with some finished and approved airplane such is A-10C. In addition to the F15 it has clickable cockpit and advanced systems modeling too.

Take a look on product fidelity levels terminology here http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=122801. F-15C is still WIP and probably will never be modeled in the same level of detail as the A-10C

Yep, if you're looking for the good old gun fights then the Eagle might not be for you. In a multiplayer scenario you'll only get into a dogfight if you're desperate or you have so much control that you can afford to. In case of being desperate you'll be fighting from a disadvantage with a lot of pressure so your chances of getting killed are really good. If you don't mind getting killed repeatedly then you'll be fine with it, but I highly doubt.

The following numbers are very broad but somewhat represent the reality of multiplayer based on my personal flight experience with the Eagle:

- overall 1 in 50 kills are achieved by the gun

- overall 1 in 10 kills are achieved WVR with missiles

That said all of these will vary depending on person, plane, opponent, and whatnot, I personally prefer staying BVR for a number of things. I'm sure one can achieve a larger % WVR/gun kills out of all if they wanted but they'll be likely to get shot down a lot more.

The best thing you can do is to never watch the vast majority of youtube videos as educational material. They're not. You didn't see anything graceful in them ... I'll leave it at that.

Also, BFM is not the eagle's last recourse. It is the fight you don't want to get into, but it is the very first thing and most basic things the USAF trains all its pilots do. Everything in the air is BFM, from your merge to BVR.

Don't practice against multiple targets. It's a meaningless exercise if you don't already know good BFM.

That is really useful to me so that I can focus more on learning my own way of flying with the new AFM instead of trying to emulate the flight I saw in those videos.

I do a lot of dog fighting against the AI myself. The one thing they are moderately good at it forcing an overshoot. When you have them locked at 6 o'clock, pay close attention to your closure rate. One of things I do is get on their 6 and just learn to stay there without trying to kill them. Obviously you'll want to setup 1v1 for this. Eventually you'll get better at spotting your closure without relying on your radar.

Based upon my experiences, learning BFM is not really something you can hope to achieve by reading books and guides and watching YouTube videos on your own. Frankly, most of this is a complete waste of time.

The theory is necessary, obviously, but you won't be able to apply it without learning how to visualise what it all looks and feels like from within the cockpit. You get this by doing, by flying 1 on 1, preferably against a human opponent who is more skilled and experienced than yourself, and who is hopefully willing to provide instant feedback when you screw up.

This feedback is critical. Absolutely critical. Without it you'll be lucky to amount to anything, and if you do, it won't happen quickly. Or, maybe you just so happen to be really good, but then again, it's funny how everyone thinks they're great, isn't it? In any case, without feedback you risk practicing and 'perfecting' substandard techniques, you risk not being able to identify your mistakes so you can learn from them (and how to learn from them), and there won't be anyone there to reinforce your performance when you get it right. No fighter pilot learns by themselves and you shouldn't either. The wheel doesn't need to be invented every time. Wherever possible and necessary, real-life BFM training occurs with an instructor sitting in the backseat telling the student what to do, what not to do, when to pull etc. What better way to learn what BFM 'feels' like?

If you want something like that your best bet is joining a virtual squadron or asking around in the various TeamSpeak servers for someone to fly 1 on 1 with. Maybe someone who knows their stuff will help you sharpen your skills, or at the very least you'll find someone to fly and share ideas with.

The problem of course - and it's a big one - is that a lot of people think they're good at BFM. They're not. A lot of people read a little bit about BFM and then they go burn holes in the sky at corner speed and think they're achieving something. They're HUD fighters who just align lift vectors and pull and pull and think that makes them good. There are almost no masters out there, really. Not ones who you find easily online anyway.

If you really want want to learn BFM, I suggest joining certain parts of the Falcon BMS community and flying online and using TeamSpeak with them. In my opinion, there is a higher proportion of people in the BMS community who are serious about BFM and actually know their stuff. It's a different world in those communities and on some servers. That's my opinion, take it or leave it - I'm not going to argue with anyone who disagrees.

By the way, if you think I must be good at BFM, you're mistaken. I suck. I am a 'theory reader' with knowledge from textbooks, but with no will or means to actually gain practical skill.

^

Those are especially funny that just come in and say how much they suck in BVR but they're godly in dogfighting.

I think the catch there with BMS is that it's a whole different level of dedication to fly there, compared to FC atleast. After reading that 900 or whatever pages of manual and learning how to operate the plane, they probably won't quit when the time comes for practice.

For the beginning, I have two rules for you: "Speed is life." and "Lost sight, lost fight." So watch your speed at all maneuvers and phases of the flight/ fight and keep track of your target.

And I'm with GG: Don't train against multiple opponents. It's useless to lern real BFM and second, 2 vs. 1 is simple no BFM, it's AFM (Advanced Combat Maneuver) - the second step after BFM and one step ahead of ACM (Advanced Combat Maneuver).

regards,

Fire

To add to some of the stuff already mentioned, don't forget to try to mess around with the F-15's AAQ modes.

Is this using the various modes of advanced radar (i.e. TWS) available in the F15 to lock enemies BVR? I have found a good educational series on how to use the systems (the popular one on YT), but I haven't fully dedicated myself to mastering that jet yet...it is on my "to do" list, it was going to come after I mastered dogfighting, but it appears dogfighting might not be as popular as I would've guessed in this game :doh:

Before going into further study, it is recommended to read manual from DCS. Every module has detailed manual.

 

To share your flight, experienced pilots, prefers saved tracks here on DCS forum. So, maybe there is no need to upload videos on youtube. Saved tracks should be enough.

 

Good luck!

I have begun to read the manual, I'm about 65 pages in. I know that I will need to re-read a few times to take it all in, there is def a lot of detail in it. I will def upload some video and TacView flights on here for the guys to look at and critique.

I agree. Starting with F-15C is maybe inconvenient. F-15C is still in beta. Learning on incomplete product is not easy. You will never know if certain behavior is bug, or you didn't done something correctly.

I recommend you to start with some finished and approved airplane such is A-10C. In addition to the F15 it has clickable cockpit and advanced systems modeling too.

 

Take a look on product fidelity levels terminology here http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=122801. F-15C is still WIP and probably will never be modeled in the same level of detail as the A-10C

Unfortunately, as much interest as I have in real life for the Warthog, I really have no desire to fly it. I purchase a HOTAS and TIR for dogfighting outside of an arcade environment, but it seems like I may have have picked the wrong sim for that.

Yep, if you're looking for the good old gun fights then the Eagle might not be for you. In a multiplayer scenario you'll only get into a dogfight if you're desperate or you have so much control that you can afford to. In case of being desperate you'll be fighting from a disadvantage with a lot of pressure so your chances of getting killed are really good. If you don't mind getting killed repeatedly then you'll be fine with it, but I highly doubt.

 

The following numbers are very broad but somewhat represent the reality of multiplayer based on my personal flight experience with the Eagle:

- overall 1 in 50 kills are achieved by the gun

- overall 1 in 10 kills are achieved WVR with missiles

 

That said all of these will vary depending on person, plane, opponent, and whatnot, I personally prefer staying BVR for a number of things. I'm sure one can achieve a larger % WVR/gun kills out of all if they wanted but they'll be likely to get shot down a lot more.

Thanks man, I appreciate the honesty. To be honest, I'm pretty bummed out that dogfighting (or any WVR fighting) isn't very common in this sim. Seems pretty boring to try to fight other jets from miles away via a radar system on the dash of a jet...in real life I understand it, but online in multiplayer it's tough to see why that's popular at all.

The best thing you can do is to never watch the vast majority of youtube videos as educational material. They're not. You didn't see anything graceful in them ... I'll leave it at that.

 

Don't practice against multiple targets. It's a meaningless exercise if you don't already know good BFM.

Duly noted on both counts, reading the forums you seem like you know your stuff, I'd love to fly with you sometime and try to pick some things up.

In terms of flying in 1 on 1 fights against the AI, what is the most challenging way to set up a Mission? Set them to Excellent, on a Jet Sweep, with their waypoint directly in my path to force a head on merge?

I do a lot of dog fighting against the AI myself. The one thing they are moderately good at it forcing an overshoot. When you have them locked at 6 o'clock, pay close attention to your closure rate. One of things I do is get on their 6 and just learn to stay there without trying to kill them. Obviously you'll want to setup 1v1 for this. Eventually you'll get better at spotting your closure without relying on your radar.

Yup, even 2 on 1 with the AI set to the highest skill level, they pretty much suck 95% of the time. They get me to overshoot due to my own stupidity, and the Mig-29 can get me to lose too much airspeed when they take me vertical and I lose my focus. The Su-27 is a breeze to take out. I fly guns only when I dogfight the AI.

Based upon my experiences, learning BFM is not really something you can hope to achieve by reading books and guides and watching YouTube videos on your own. Frankly, most of this is a complete waste of time.

 

The theory is necessary, obviously, but you won't be able to apply it without learning how to visualise what it all looks and feels like from within the cockpit. You get this by doing, by flying 1 on 1, preferably against a human opponent who is more skilled and experienced than yourself, and who is hopefully willing to provide instant feedback when you screw up.

 

This feedback is critical. Absolutely critical. Without it you'll be lucky to amount to anything, and if you do, it won't happen quickly. Or, maybe you just so happen to be really good, but then again, it's funny how everyone thinks they're great, isn't it? In any case, without feedback you risk practicing and 'perfecting' substandard techniques, you risk not being able to identify your mistakes so you can learn from them (and how to learn from them), and there won't be anyone there to reinforce your performance when you get it right. No fighter pilot learns by themselves and you shouldn't either. The wheel doesn't need to be invented every time. Wherever possible and necessary, real-life BFM training occurs with an instructor sitting in the backseat telling the student what to do, what not to do, when to pull etc. What better way to learn what BFM 'feels' like?

 

If you want something like that your best bet is joining a virtual squadron or asking around in the various TeamSpeak servers for someone to fly 1 on 1 with. Maybe someone who knows their stuff will help you sharpen your skills, or at the very least you'll find someone to fly and share ideas with.

 

The problem of course - and it's a big one - is that a lot of people think they're good at BFM. They're not. A lot of people read a little bit about BFM and then they go burn holes in the sky at corner speed and think they're achieving something. They're HUD fighters who just align lift vectors and pull and pull and think that makes them good. There are almost no masters out there, really. Not ones who you find easily online anyway.

 

If you really want want to learn BFM, I suggest joining certain parts of the Falcon BMS community and flying online and using TeamSpeak with them. In my opinion, there is a higher proportion of people in the BMS community who are serious about BFM and actually know their stuff. It's a different world in those communities and on some servers. That's my opinion, take it or leave it - I'm not going to argue with anyone who disagrees.

 

By the way, if you think I must be good at BFM, you're mistaken. I suck. I am a 'theory reader' with knowledge from textbooks, but with no will or means to actually gain practical skill.

Thanks for the thoughts man, really insightful. I agree with you about learning through experience and the need to find people to teach me 1-on-1. I will probably seek that out once I continue to get a better feel for the aircraft myself, where I am more "teachable" per se.

I have been wondering lately if BMS 4.3.2 would've been a better choice for me...seems like it might have been? Are there no gun only dogfighting servers on DCS? I really enjoy the community here and love where it appears the sim is going in terms of development, so I don't want to leave, but I am starting to question if DCS is right for me and what I'm looking to do.

For the beginning, I have two rules for you: "Speed is life." and "Lost sight, lost fight." So watch your speed at all maneuvers and phases of the flight/ fight and keep track of your target.

 

And I'm with GG: Don't train against multiple opponents. It's useless to lern real BFM and second, 2 vs. 1 is simple no BFM, it's AFM (Advanced Combat Maneuver) - the second step after BFM and one step ahead of ACM (Advanced Combat Maneuver).

 

regards,

Fire

Thanks for the two rules, those have been my two primary focuses thus far. I've had the TIR for less than a week so I am still working on keeping constant visuals. I'm hoping once my HOTAS arrives I will be able to improve upon my speed control, but I seem to be getting better everyday with that without a throttle. I do make a conscious effort to check my speed often and I'm trying to gain a feel for it without having to check my HUD or radar.

Attached is an ACMI TacView file of what I would call a "standard" dogfight for me against the AI. In this particular flight I went into a Split-S at the merge, something I hadn't tried previously. Overall I see plenty of mistakes (which I would love for someone to call out and provide advice on how to improve), and in this particular flight, I had pretty terrible aim when I had positioned myself for the easy kill -- my aim comes and goes, but I know over time I will get that part down. If anyone is willing to give it a watch and provide some coaching, outside of the poor aim, that would be awesome...I'd love to know what my glaring flaws were?

In general, I have struggled the most against the Mig-29 when he 1) takes me into the vertical over and over and I screw up my speed control up by ascending with too little and stalling or losing control, or I descend with too much and I can't get the nose up; or 2) when he constantly turns back into me and I can never figure out a good counter. I will get a flight of those two things up soon for analysis to see if someone has any tips.

Standard dogfight.rar

Here is another I just finished, this was probably the best I've done in terms of being patient -- a really big lesson for me to learn. Usually I will see if I am in a one or two circle fight after the merge, then I will make a few passes and if I don't get a shot, I do something (go vertical, extend, crash into the dirt like a dumbass, whatever). This time I told myself to be patient and let him make a mistake. In the process I made a few myself but was able to recover.

The biggest mistake I made was: Around 1:00 in I "felt" like I was losing a ton of speed, so I hit the burners. Turns out I was at corner speed, and I ended up putting myself way above corner speed. When I realized this (around 1:40 in), I was able to get back down to a good speed and I broke course and attempted to change into a single circle engagement. Overall my speed control wasn't great during the entire fight, so I know that's something I really need to continue focusing on.

When I went for the single circle, he broke off but finally made his mistake. My speed had once again gotten too high as he tried to pull his nose onto me, so I blew past him and was able to use my speed advantage to stay out of his turn circle and maintain good 3:9 position and slowly pulling in for a good gun shot.

Better patience.rar

I don't claim to be a pro pilot. All I have is a long experience all the way back from the original lomac.

Now with the new flight model, I spend more time flying the plane rather than flying the mission/ fighting... So now we're pretty much in the same boat....

My biggest advice: All those studies about cornering speed, dogfighting tactics, etc. are good. However at the end of the day, all these info must be natural and instinctive and without any effort expended into thinking all of these things while flying. In short; flying by the seat of your pants. That goes with practice.

Don't know if this is posted somewhere else here but this very old guide is a good one:

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/acmintro.htm

Seems pretty boring to try to fight other jets from miles away via a radar system on the dash of a jet.

Might seem boring, and it'll be especially disappointing to those who never improve at it. For them it'll look like that they just randomly get shot down everytime. It's a mindgame that can be a lot of fun if you have a good opponent. I respect that you prefer fighting visually, but you shouldn't refuse to try other things that are great but look bad at first. Might actually like it in the end! :)

However if you do try it, and you don't have someone to train you, you'll get show down without getting any kills for weeks. But that's kind of the same with dogfighting too, except that you see the bad guy.

As for why isn't there any real gun server with a lot of people, I don't know. Probably not due to lack of interest, I suspect there just isn't a group that can afford hosting another big server besides the other one they run. Should change in the future, I definitely like changing the environment when I get a bit bored.

About the fights:

#1: I won't comment, I honestly have no idea if flying like that pre merge will ever work against a human. For me, it was just weird :D

#2: Other than what you said, your biggest mistake here is reversing your turncircle at 2:00. You just saved him more than 90 degree of turning when he has zero turnrate due to his speed by reversing in front of his nose. Basically you're flying on corner all day which is great but you're taking too long to take advantage. When you have so much speed advantage you should use some degree of vertical to use G better. He'll also have a hard time pointing his nose at you since he's low on energy. He also had a bunch of opportunities to shoot you because you stayed in the horizontal all the time.

Just for the record, and sorry if I come across as a real noob, but what exactly is a HUD fighter?

Someone who looks at his HUD more than the bandit, and will stick to his corner speed /no matter what/. He'll do that because he has no real understanding of BFM, he'll follow the rule but won't know why it works and when to ignore the rule.