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Old 07-06-2018, 06:57 AM   #11
Slazi
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Originally Posted by sc_neo View Post
Again, if the devs would take the time to enlighten us in detail how the Gazelle's control and flight dynamics are designed, and why we see certain behaviour with AP on and off, that would sure help a lot and leave us not guessing withou haveing all the facts.
It's not their job to explain it to us, we should do the research and prove them wrong if we think there is a problem.
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Old 07-06-2018, 07:51 AM   #12
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None of these are the helicoptor and system you are complaining about. We need feedback from people who have flown this exact military helicoptor.

I'm sure you have some valid points, but.I would imagine the autopilot features make massive difference to how an aircraft behaves.


He took AP off...


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Old 07-06-2018, 08:17 AM   #13
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Dear community,
First of all thank you for your time and effort to speak about your thoughts on the Gazelle.
Let me roll up the last post from last to first.

About bank angles of the Gazelle a very important fact has to be known. As soon the AP and the gyro are activated, another system is running in the background to enhance flightsafety and an easier controlability of the helicopter for combat use. This system is callaed "SAS", as far I remember the correct name is Stability Augumentation System, but I would have to check that again, which is not im portant for the function it provides.
This system is designed to support the pilots and counter tendencies of the airframe that you try to neglect if possible to increase safety of flight during combat. According to the french pilots the system has 2 sides, a good and a bad one. Good one is that it enables you to fly semi automatic in cross country flights. Bad part is, if you fly more aggresiv you have to fight the systems tendencies, which is the reason why some of the pilots switch of the AP or the gyro for example.
I also switch of the trim when I fly her in DCS, then she feels even more natural to me, but that is just me and everybody has to find thier preferred way of flying her.
This SAS has no real activation button by design in the SA342M cause it is directly linked to the gyro and the autopilot.
As soon you switch off certain functions the SAS is also deactivated.
Another important factor about the Gazelle is the design of the rotorsystem. I often read that people like to compare the Gazelle and the huey. Yes both have the same phyisical laws applied, BUT, they both have different rotordesigns, not only the ammount of the blades and the width of the blades over the cord of the blade, no, the airfoil is different and very importantly, also the rotorsystem itself is designed different. The blades of the Gazelle are capable of flap and feather independently which also changes some flightbehavior in favour of the Gazelle, and no, the blades of the Huey are not capable of doing the exact same. As far I remember the blades of the Huey are only able to flap through the axis of the hinge. Also weight and distance between center of mass and rotor center are different, including the relativ positions between, mainrotor, tailrotor and center of mass, which is for example a reason why the Gazelle has literally no tendency of roll when you apply yaw. Compared that with a huey it has to be stated that both fly different and according to one of the testpilots in our team, who flys the huey for living, plus one of his buddies has over 10000h on the huey and knows the DCS huey, the flightmodel has its flaws too, which I myself can not comment, cause I have no experiance with the huey other then in DCS, so for me, in regards to the huey, I am at the same seat of opinion like the majority of the customers and think it is great.
One factor I have to add about the SAS too. This system enables the autohover of the helicopter too. Without it the SA342M would not be able to autohover or even slave itself to the Viviane sight.

Sc_neo pointed out that the Gazelle centers itself slower then the MI8. I do have the DCS MI8 since nearly 2 weeks now and know little to nothing about its avionics. I assume that the MI8 does not have a SAS, but as stated, I do not know, so the next thing is pure speculation. If it does not have a SAS the centering tendency of the MI8 is linked to the pendulum effect, that is more pronounced to heavy helicopters then to light once, where you feel little to no pendulum effect, which also depends on thier relativ design.

About Focha. I am not sure what your intentions are, but I have reviewed your former statements and compare it to yours now and they are the complete opposite. First you complained about fm issues that were by far changed now and now you complain about the fact, that the helicopter keeps it roll, which you were complaining about before, that it was not doing what I just mentioned. Not sure if I misunderstood something, but right now I am not sure where you want to travel with your statement.

I am happy to talk about aspects of helicopter flights all the time, but keep in mind, EVERY helicopter flys different and also DCS huey and DCS MI8 have flightmodel flaws, which I have seen myself. But I am not discussing any other module that is not our own, which would not be fair and I hope that we do not have to compare DCS huey and DCS Gazelle all the time to explain things, cause explaining and comparing flaws with flaws just make things worse and I would not like to judge other modules in comparrison with ours. I am certain the people who made the other modules have thier valid information why the modules are the way they made them. Same apllies for us.

@Focha, please make sure that the FFB options are turned off. One of the pilots was bitching about the Gazelle too, until we compared settings and figurred that FFB was activ, although he uses a none FFB stick.
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Old 07-06-2018, 11:12 AM   #14
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Then let me ask you a very simple question, why is it impossible to get into VRS?
And don't say it's because of the blade material because that's not how it works.
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Old 07-06-2018, 12:00 PM   #15
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ummm bank angles seems similar in effect to either Huey or Mi8 or Gazelle you need to apply the required input to change the attitude of the aircraft.

Turn the SAS off it feels better.

The Gazelle and the Huey and the Mi8 do not "center" them selves when you release the control that's just so jopystickish,..
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Old 07-06-2018, 02:39 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by YorZor View Post
Then let me ask you a very simple question, why is it impossible to get into VRS?
And don't say it's because of the blade material because that's not how it works.
1) VRS is the simmer holy graal and that's cool but IRL I never talked to a Gazelle pilot who experienced it, including a 5000 h pilot who who's job was to carry slingloads in the Alps. So if he never met it during his 5000 h at 3000 m, I think that it may not happen so easily.

2) VRS is implemented and I can confirm it to you as long as I participated in the test sessions, and most of the beta testers are from my squad, it is simply hard to get and more than all, you get out from the ring very very fast so you may hardly notice it. Still, promise, it is implemented. Of course you can consider that I am an evil slave of Polychop, but my question would be : Why ? I am not paid (If they paid me then, it could be different)

3) Your assertion tends to make me think that you don't think that the blade shape of an helicopter really matter on his aerodynamics, which feels a bit the same as if I said : Wings on a plane don't matter... There are as many differences between the Gazelle rotor shapes and Huey one than between a P-47 and an F-16 ^^

I don't blindly defend devs but here, sincerely, you are wrong...

Nicolas
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Old 07-06-2018, 04:28 PM   #17
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I like the SA342 very much. In VR it is awsome.


But there is one thing in FM i can´t explain to myself:


If Speed is higher than 75-80 km/h and i push the Rudder full left or full right, it feels the Tail is smashing at a buffer. It´s a hard and fixed pointed bumper. (Not real, but it feels so) No matter if the Gyro+AP is on or off.



Can anyone explain this to me or just confirm this?
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Old 07-06-2018, 04:56 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dimitriov View Post
1) VRS is the simmer holy graal and that's cool but IRL I never talked to a Gazelle pilot who experienced it, including a 5000 h pilot who who's job was to carry slingloads in the Alps. So if he never met it during his 5000 h at 3000 m, I think that it may not happen so easily.

2) VRS is implemented and I can confirm it to you as long as I participated in the test sessions, and most of the beta testers are from my squad, it is simply hard to get and more than all, you get out from the ring very very fast so you may hardly notice it. Still, promise, it is implemented. Of course you can consider that I am an evil slave of Polychop, but my question would be : Why ? I am not paid (If they paid me then, it could be different)

3) Your assertion tends to make me think that you don't think that the blade shape of an helicopter really matter on his aerodynamics, which feels a bit the same as if I said : Wings on a plane don't matter... There are as many differences between the Gazelle rotor shapes and Huey one than between a P-47 and an F-16 ^^

I don't blindly defend devs but here, sincerely, you are wrong...

Nicolas

Well you make alot of assumptions there about me. I'm not comparing it to the huey? I'm comparing it to my real-life experience. I've never flown the gazelle irl but I have flown more then one helicopter from EC/AS.

When I'm able to go almost full collective down and a straight vertical decent with 3000+ ft a minute and 8m above the ground slap on 40% of throttle and come to a steady hover... Something is not adding up.


And I've never said anything about the shape of the blade did I?



Btw I never said the huey was perfect. I realize it's missing some aerodynamic effects that I'd really like to see but overall to me it feels much better. Now I'm also of the opinion pilots do not make the best people to ask these things. The same goes for engineers. You'll always end up having the engineer saying something is (im)possible and the pilot saying the exact opposite. You fly irl not by your eyes but by all your sensory inputs. Eyesight is just one that you're taught to not rely on too much. Same goes for the ass.

Last edited by YorZor; 07-06-2018 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 07-06-2018, 05:11 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by YorZor View Post
When I'm able to go almost full collective down and a straight vertical decent with 3000+ ft a minute and 8m above the ground slap on 40% of throttle and come to a steady hover... Something is not adding up.
You can do the same crazy stuff in the Huey
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Old 07-06-2018, 09:25 PM   #20
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Which could indicate that the Huey also isn't perfect, doesn't necessarily prove that the Gazelle is correct. Surely someone's feedback based on real experience is worth listening to? We all stand to benefit if we can get to the bottom of what's going on with the flight model.
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