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Old 01-10-2017, 04:28 PM   #1
Moafuleum
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Default Adjustable gun convergence, Ammo type

Hi

I was wondering if we get the possibility to adjust the guns convergence in the future (maybe in the mission editor)? So far, the manual does not say anything about calibrating it within DCS but only drops a view words about the position of the guns in the wings and that they are adjustable in principle (in the real aircraft).

Also, i asked myself whether it will be possible to choose a different ammo mix as the manual widely explains different historic types of ammo and what each type was good for. As a consequence, this would make a rework of the damage model of all aircraft necessary since different parts of different aircraft react differently on the impact of each ammo type (hitting fuel tanks, armor plates, cloth-coated fuselage, etc. with A.P., Incendiary, etc. respectively). So i guess this would be a more complex task to tackle?

If this was discussed earlier, then I'm sorry, i haven't found anything.

kind regards
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Old 01-10-2017, 09:25 PM   #2
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This is almost an essential aspect of the ac. I hope this is added soon!
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Old 01-10-2017, 09:37 PM   #3
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Gun convergence changes won't be happening. Do a search as there are plently on threads on it.

The tl;dr is the reality in WWII was that it was chosen at an airforce level by all major airforces, with not much variation at squadron, wing or even theatre level. There were very rare exceptions for top aces/senior commanders, but they were exceptions.

Ammo changes also too fall under the banner of above. That said, the functionality is already in a number of modules, so it's probably more likely we'd see that.
There's been threads on them, but no-one has been able to prove choosing ammo load outs was a pilot level choice and that deviating from the normal was routine.
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Old 01-10-2017, 09:38 PM   #4
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I really don't want this feature and personally I would say it is far from essential, lets keep it historical!

I you can prove a certain convergence was used or that a certain belt arrangement was used officially then I think a list of these should be added to the game however I really don't want to see personal convergences and belts it would only be abused.
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Old 01-10-2017, 09:39 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzles View Post
Gun convergence changes won't be happening. Do a search as there are plently on threads on it.

The tl;dr is the reality in WWII was that it was chosen at an airforce level by all major airforces, with not much variation at squadron, wing or even theatre level. There were very rare exceptions for top aces/senior commanders, but they were exceptions.

Ammo changes also too fall under the banner of above. That said, the functionality is already in a number of modules, so it's probably more likely we'd see that.
There's been threads on them, but no-one has been able to prove choosing ammo load outs was a pilot level choice and that deviating from the normal was routine.
+1
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Old 01-10-2017, 09:44 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moafuleum View Post
Hi

I was wondering if we get the possibility to adjust the guns convergence in the future (maybe in the mission editor)? So far, the manual does not say anything about calibrating it within DCS but only drops a view words about the position of the guns in the wings and that they are adjustable in principle (in the real aircraft).

Also, i asked myself whether it will be possible to choose a different ammo mix as the manual widely explains different historic types of ammo and what each type was good for. As a consequence, this would make a rework of the damage model of all aircraft necessary since different parts of different aircraft react differently on the impact of each ammo type (hitting fuel tanks, armor plates, cloth-coated fuselage, etc. with A.P., Incendiary, etc. respectively). So i guess this would be a more complex task to tackle?

If this was discussed earlier, then I'm sorry, i haven't found anything.

kind regards
Another current WWII SIM does this now by applying values to bullets for impact/penetration/explosion/incendiary and when they hit an object (engine/mounts/frame/fuel tank/hydraulic line - a damage/destruction value for the material impacted - (steel/aluminum/canvas) is applied in combination with the type of bullet and then linked to the graphic damage model to show oil/smoke-white-black/flame/engines departing etc. Additionally, angle of attack for the bullet determines the amount of skin penetration.

So it is quite within the realm of simming right now.

I hope that ED make a huge jump in this direction over what is happening now and I'm confident that they will in time.

Last edited by Catseye; 01-10-2017 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 01-11-2017, 08:22 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krupi View Post
I really don't want this feature and personally I would say it is far from essential, lets keep it historical!

I you can prove a certain convergence was used or that a certain belt arrangement was used officially then I think a list of these should bflighd to the game however I really don't want to see personal convergences and belts it would only be abused.
How one can abuse barrel alignment? Its like saying that adding adjustable sights to a rifle would abuse it.

There are many accounts of both British, American pilots changing the convergence. It is not amatter of whole airforce doctrine, you just go to your ground crew chief engineer and get it done. He takes your airplane, they do that from time to time because guns desynchronized during flight. He puts your airplane in a hangar with big target and crew adjusts the guns. It is not a matter of Gen. Doolittle's approval.

There are some accounts saying that pilots had their gins adjusted at different distances to cover different to have similar effectiveness at a range of distances, sacrificing the punching power that comes from all guns pouting at the same direction, if I am not mistaken it qss on the pacyfic where hitting a target was harder than destroying it.

It was not abusable in IL2, Clod, AH, BOS and WT. Why would it be abused here?
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Old 01-11-2017, 08:39 AM   #8
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Hardly a fair comparison is it now?

Like I said if one can prove a certain convergence was used I am all for it being added, I just don't want to see custom ones with zero historical evidence to back it up.
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Old 01-11-2017, 10:00 AM   #9
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As was mentioned in other threads before: Adjusting the convergence by the pilot was an exception. Reason was that planes might get shifted around between pilots, so a standard convergence setting was to be expected.

Maybe a compromise would be to provide some different presets within reasonable ranges (example given, though not applicable here, the british conv settings during the Battle of Britain with the Dowding 400 yard spread and the quickly adopted 200 yard point convergence). Same goes for belting.

Just not the quite crazy IL2 Clod style where you could readjust every single gun.
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Old 01-11-2017, 11:08 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by arglmauf View Post

Just not the quite crazy IL2 Clod style where you could readjust every single gun.
Adjusting every single gun is historically correct and therefore as this is a simulator it should be incorporated, as should belt bullet order.
Also German aircraft sometimes used divergence with their nose guns.

Original Lock On planes never needed gun adjustment, but since the introduction of the Mustang it is now a necessity.

..
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