Using "throttle for GS and stick for AOA" when landing - Page 27 - ED Forums
 


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Old 03-13-2018, 07:38 AM   #261
David OC
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Originally Posted by bbrz View Post
You are completely missing the point here. This has nothing to do with pros like ttaylor0024.
I'm just trying to explain to you that what applies to the U.S.Navy and the F/A-18 doesn't necessarily apply to other aircraft and/or they way to fly aircraft.

I don't know how often (or if at all) you experience windshear, up and downdrafts on approach behind the boat, but if this happens with aircraft like the A-10 during a normal ILS approach you will simply run out of time if you wait until your aircraft will settle again on the ILS GS on its own.

That's why I mentioned that it doesn't make sense to use a method that you can't rely on in any case and under any circumstances.

You shouldn't simply apply a procedure that's only valid for a very narrow band of operation/aircraft to other ops/aircraft.


I wasn't referring to the similarty or dissimilarity but to the fact that there's no 'feel' in (most) FBW aircraft like e.g. the A320 and the F/A-18 due to the way the FBW is implemented in those aircraft.
Well it works for the aircraft I've tried it with in DCS.

This was the first post I posted in this thread, on the 2nd page to help others understand this technique skill set for carrier ops, it's from an old thread from another F/A-18 Navy pilot neofightr and his thread.

I want to understand this myself, that's all. What your saying is true about the windshear, up and downdrafts, turbulance.

To the aircraft with (on speed) AOA, I see this like a boat or sea plane going through water, before it gets "right up" on its skids to fly.

It's pushing on the water, if I add a little power the water will lift me up higher. If I set a power setting it will sit there on the same angle plowing through the water correct?



All that disturbance you said is just the choppy water or air ahead, it will settle back down to it's on speed AOA, I'm not going to force it there. If it's as bad as you say, there would be many wave offs and bolter's.

That does happen on the videos I've seen, especially if you throw in a pitching deck too. Scary stuff....

One last video, I need more practise with the Su33, haven't use it very much, she is more touchy than the A10 when at (on speed) AOA, that's for sure, interested to see what the F/A18 will be like.

Throttle and bank, No Pitch



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Last edited by David OC; 03-13-2018 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 03-13-2018, 08:17 AM   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David OC View Post
1.All that disturbance you said is just the choppy water or air ahead, it will settle back down to it's on speed AOA, I'm not going to force it there.
2.If it's as bad as you say, there would be many wave offs and bolter's.
1.It's about precise flight path control and you don't know if the next gust is pushing you away from the localizer/glidepath even further. Again, you don't sit there and hope that everything will smooth out sooner or later.


2. As I said, I don't know the situation behind the boat, but at least they don't have the problem of e.g. mountainous terrain around them and/or changing terrain surface/height below them...
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Old 03-13-2018, 08:29 AM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbrz View Post
1.It's about precise flight path control and you don't know if the next gust is pushing you away from the localizer/glidepath even further. Again, you don't sit there and hope that everything will smooth out sooner or later.

2. As I said, I don't know the situation behind the boat, but at least they don't have the problem of e.g. mountainous terrain around them and/or changing terrain surface/height below them...
Hawkeye, F/A18 etc

This is the technique they use, land and at sea for carrier ops.

You are better to be a little high on the glide slope (HIGH BALL), like these guy's have been saying, this would allow for choppy air.

Watch these guys learning, they miss the mark and add power to go around in good weather, you don't pull up or push down, just add power and fly away, you are already set for On speed AOA.

Add power and you go up, if you pitch up you slow down Bad

Re Read Curly's post



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Last edited by David OC; 03-13-2018 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 03-13-2018, 08:39 AM   #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbrz View Post
You are completely missing the point here. This has nothing to do with pros like ttaylor0024.
I'm just trying to explain to you that what applies to the U.S.Navy and the F/A-18 doesn't necessarily apply to other aircraft and/or they way to fly aircraft.

I don't know how often (or if at all) you experience windshear, up and downdrafts on approach behind the boat, but if this happens with aircraft like the A-10 during a normal ILS approach you will simply run out of time if you wait until your aircraft will settle again on the ILS GS on its own.

That's why I mentioned that it doesn't make sense to use a method that you can't rely on in any case and under any circumstances.

You shouldn't simply apply a procedure that's only valid for a very narrow band of operation/aircraft to other ops/aircraft.


I wasn't referring to the similarty or dissimilarity but to the fact that there's no 'feel' in (most) FBW aircraft like e.g. the A320 and the F/A-18 due to the way the FBW is implemented in those aircraft.
While flying the backside technique you apply corrections just as you would in a conventional approach. If you encounter winds you don't wait for aircraft to settle either, you actively aviate. It's just your corrections are different.


What is the corrective action when encountering a downburst. It's not just pitch. You apply full power, because pitch alone will kill you.

The backside techniques work just as well and are safer than conventional corrections for shear. Since the ability to fly a specific glide slope is determined by the power available. During a downburst the power requirement goes up because an external force is acting downwards on the craft. Using the backside technique of adding power for glide slope fixes this.

The problem with adding pitch is you trigger a dynamic response. That can exacerbate your primary issue, rapidly increasing descent rate. Lets say there is a down burst and you pull back on the stick to counter. You increase the AOA and therefore the lift coefficient, problem solved right?

Not really because you've increased drag and made your L/D ratio worse. Your now losing speed.
Since lift = .5 * Cl * air density * velocity^2 * area,

We end up with less lift, thus increasing our descent rate. Pitching further compounds the problem we slow further, losing more lift and increasing the descent rate. If we excessively pitch while adding power, your responses are nulling each other out and you don't net out a positive response that will halt the excessive sink rate..

You have more power but less lift, it's easy to doom the aircraft in this manner. That's why the only pitching you should be doing is to keep aircraft the aircraft's angle of attack stable. As the wind will be pushing the nose down.

The backside technique is safer in shear conditions because, you are responding to forces acting on the aircraft which are disrupting the flight path with opposite opposing forces immediately, rather than responding with actions that trigger a dynamic state which may or may not help you.

It's why the navy trains pilots to respond to shear the same in a way in a turbo prop as in Hornet.

http://www.t6bdriver.com/uploads/6/4..._1542.166b.pdf

Last edited by Curly; 03-13-2018 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 03-13-2018, 08:54 AM   #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curly View Post
The problem with adding pitch is you trigger a dynamic response. That can exacerbate your primary issue, rapidly increasing descent rate. Lets say there is a down burst and you pull back on the stick to counter. You increase the AOA and therefore the lift coefficient, problem solved right?
It's why the navy trains pilots to respond to shear the same in a way in a turbo prop as in Hornet.
? We are talking about a totally different issue. It's not about pitching up or down. It's about not actively controlling pitch at all and let the aircraft decide how much and how fast the nose moves up/down on its own.

No pilot would even think about recovering from a low position on the glide slope by only increasing pitch (or only increasing power in many aircraft)

Concerning windshear. It seems that windshear precaution/recovery is basically always the same, regardless if it's a C152 or an A380, not only in turboprops or the F/A-18.

Last edited by bbrz; 03-13-2018 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 03-13-2018, 09:04 AM   #266
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There is no different issue bbrz, this is a flying technique / skill set all Navy pilots use to fly any aircraft onto the carrier or when flying from land bases to keep it fresh.

I like it! and will be using this technique in my flying, especially in IMC ILS conditions in the A-10C (You need an aircraft with an AOA indexer + ILS for IMC) it lowers the workload, so you can concentrate on the instruments more.

In the Navy, it's so you can look outside at the ball/AOA indexer/E bracket and not worry about much else inside the cockpit. As ttaylor0024 has said, he quickly checks (On Speed) AOA (level flight speed), against his rough aircraft weight, if the speeds close to what it should be, he doesn't look at the speed anymore, only the AOA indexer, alignment and ball.

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Old 03-13-2018, 09:10 AM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David OC View Post
There is no different issue bbrz, this is a flying technique / skill set all Navy pilots use to fly any aircraft onto the carrier or when flying from land bases to keep it fresh.

I like it! and will be using this technique in my flying, especially in IMC ILS conditions in the A-10C (You need an aircraft with an AOA indexer + ILS for IMC) it lowers the workload to concentrate on the instruments.
It is a different issue and so far I've seen only U.S. Navy pilots use it.

I do wish you success with this method in the A-10 in gusty weather in IMC, but don't be surprised if you have to go-around quite often instead of landing with this method
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Old 03-13-2018, 09:19 AM   #268
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I do not know if it has already been posted in this thread, but this video is really interesting not only in description of the magic carpet landing system, but general ship landing techniques and how magic carpet improves it, might give someone a better understanding of what's going on:

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Old 03-13-2018, 01:38 PM   #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbrz View Post
It is a different issue and so far I've seen only U.S. Navy pilots use it.

I do wish you success with this method in the A-10 in gusty weather in IMC, but don't be surprised if you have to go-around quite often instead of landing with this method
It's a little hair raising the first few times you are in bumpy weather, but just like with using an airspeed approach you just kind of average it out. As far as corrections go on glideslope, it corrects quicker than you'd think as well.
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Old 03-13-2018, 04:16 PM   #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttaylor0024 View Post
It's a little hair raising the first few times you are in bumpy weather, but just like with using an airspeed approach you just kind of average it out. As far as corrections go on glideslope, it corrects quicker than you'd think as well.
Sounds like a pretty impressive piece of equipment, your F/A-18!

The mil jets I flew decades ago didn't even have an AoA gauge and the A320 FBW system isn't very capable (and surprisingly slow!)

The more I get the F/A-18 to know the more I'm looking forward to the DCS version It's going to be interesting if the FBW works like in the real one.
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