Speed for best turn rate?

Hi,

In a dogfight, what is the best indicated airspeed to fly at to achive the best turn rate (fastest turn) but still have energy left on the other side?

Thank you

Hi,

 

In a dogfight, what is the best indicated airspeed to fly at to achive the best turn rate (fastest turn) but still have energy left on the other side?

 

Thank you

Unfortunately the word "depends" gets used a lot here.

Altitude, weight, loadout?

Fastest so instantaneous turn rate? But how much energy out the other side?

Etc.

Yes, I understand. Thank you.

I was just hoping there was some way to identify the best speed at any given moment.

In the F-5, I tend to simply merge as fast as I can get, given you'll need the extra speed and that (appart from the mig-21, but than he's got the power advantage so you still want a high merge speed) everyone out turns you below 300KTS.

I wouldn't advice doing one circle merges in the F-5 if possible.

Hi,

 

In a dogfight, what is the best indicated airspeed to fly at to achive the best turn rate (fastest turn) but still have energy left on the other side?

 

Thank you

What you are looking for is the "corner speed." It is the speed in which you will reach the aircraft's best turn performance (max turn rate, max sustained G). You will have to experiment a little to find this speed range for the F-5, and as you know, it will vary depending on weight and drag. Energy is everything in ACM, especially with the F-5 because it lacks the power that a lot of it's adversaries have. Obviously, this means that you want to maintain as much speed as possible and manage it well while maneuvering. Like Ktulu2 said, keep your speed above 300kts because the F-5's maneuverability severely degrades below that.

I see. Thank you.

300 IAS is rather fast I think..?

What is one circle merges?

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2862169&postcount=6

One-circle flow is the same as nose-to-nose flow and two circle flow is same as nose-to-tail flow. One-circle and two-circle can be a bit misleading names for these flows although people like to use them more despite that.

I guess it all depends on what you want a speed for :

Ideal speed to merge?

Ideal speed to try to sustain?

The answer is still it depends. What's the bandit doing?

le'ts say internal fuel only(50%), two sidewinder on the wingtips and medium hight, let's say 15k. what would be a good speed to be at?

does it really depend on the altitude if we look IAS?

A bit, because the graph 'moves' depending on altitude .... though your power peak is usually 0.9M or thereabouts past 10000'.

But again, it depends: You've got your parameters; What is the bandit, and what is the bandit doing?

Hi,

browse the manual here https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/1946738/

and search the Energy Management Charts (EM Charts).

U will find something like this:

There u can find your answer.

This is not exactly the one for the E version of the F-5, but gives U a good approximation.

.

I usually do my best to keep a IAS between 340/380 kts.......and repeat LAG PURSUIT as my mantra :smartass:

I think you're over analyzing this a bit, as others have said, keep your energy up as much as possible. The F-5E is a plane that once in combat, you keep the burner on and airbrake in no matter what. If you are going to overshoot, do a wide barrel roll or pull high and then drop back down to keep speed up without covering as much horizontal distance. You do not throttle back or pop the airbrake. Turning is the same way, keep her as fast as you can at all times. Use high yoyos to tighten the turn when needed without sacrificing E. Until it's time to shoot, lag pursuit is the name of the game.

You do not have the engine power to regain energy in the middle of a fight, the MiG-21 does, the 4th gens do but the F-5E does not. Corner speed as a concept is not relevant to the F-5E. That said, I'm not sure it's relevant to any fighter since no one is going to look at a chart and then try to match the virage time (max turn rate with no loss of E). If you do ever encounter someone trying to do that, do a hard turn and give them a taste of 20mm. That should teach them.:smilewink:

You do not have the engine power to regain energy in the middle of a fight, the MiG-21 does, the 4th gens do but the F-5E does not. Corner speed as a concept is not relevant to the F-5E. That said, I'm not sure it's relevant to any fighter

... then you probably shouldn't be commenting on it. I'm just saying :)

^this^

STR, ITR, and knowing where those values lay at weight and altitude is the fundamental basis of BFM. You cannot effectively define your plan, or even determine if it's working, if you are unable to fly effective profiles to the best of your aircraft's performance. You don't even have to know what the other guy's number is; all you have to do is see what your best is doing, and operate accordingly.

And any G less than STR is, by its inherent nature, the reacquisition of energy.

It's the classic rate vs radius fight.

In the F-5 try to lure the MiG into a low speed radius fight, and if he doesn't fall for that then use your tighter turn radius to deny the MiG good deflection shots on his passes and then try to slip in behind him for a brief shot after he overshoots.

My k/d ratio against human players is pretty good while flying the f5, so yeah, I can comment on it in a useful manner. The point I'm trying to get across is that air combat is far too fluid to put much stock in any given performance stat. And since the f-5 is more disadvantaged by lost energy than its main opponent, doing things that maximize energy retention or gain while also shifting position in your favor are critically important. Simply flying in circles at your listed corner speed does not achieve that. Even doing so for short periods is often counterproductive.

Corner speed as a concept is not relevant to the F-5E. That said, I'm not sure it's relevant to any fighter since no one is going to look at a chart and then try to match the virage time (max turn rate with no loss of E). If you do ever encounter someone trying to do that, do a hard turn and give them a taste of 20mm. That should teach them.:smilewink:

Every fighter pilot has long classes, briefings and debriefings that anlize his and his adversary performances and the EM Charts analysis are an important part in this knowledge building process. Corner speed is NOT just a theoretical topic, but is a fundamental concept, a crucial variable in geometry and dynamics of ACMs.

During my exercises at Maple Flags for example, after the general debriefs, senior instructors used to keep apart the pilots that had a dogfight, both winners (usually very experienced aggressors) and loosers (usually me ;) ) and use every instrument available to make U understand when, where, and why U did some mistake and how to correct it. This includes EM Charts analysis. At first all those stuffs could appear boring and unusefull, but then, in the next flights U realize how much U emprove Ur perfomances and when U metabolize them, those theories become "phisical flight feelings" that become part of Ur fundamental training backgroud.

The point I'm trying to get across is that air combat is far too fluid to put much stock in any given performance stat.

While it's optimal to be able to intuitively judge what speed you need to be flying and where to turn it doesn't mean the theory is invalid or getting max performance out of your jet isn't important. Quite the contrary. The theory exists so that you can know how to get the best performance from your jet and not getting that performance is going to get you shot down against a pilot who can do it. I have seen countless pilots who "keep their energy up" and end up turning very slowly and give me an easy kill. The thing is that energy is nothing if the bandit gets into your tail. Also bleeding your energy unnecessarily gets you shot down. The easy way to learn to eyeball your turn performance is to first do it by the numbers and get it right. When you learn how the "right move" looks you can then maybe learn to eyeball it. While it's also possible to learn the "right moves" by eyeballing it takes considerable effort and time to do it.

While it's optimal to be able to intuitively judge what speed you need to be flying and where to turn it doesn't mean the theory is invalid or getting max performance out of your jet isn't important. Quite the contrary. The theory exists so that you can know how to get the best performance from your jet and not getting that performance is going to get you shot down against a pilot who can do it. I have seen countless pilots who "keep their energy up" and end up turning very slowly and give me an easy kill. The thing is that energy is nothing if the bandit gets into your tail. Also bleeding your energy unnecessarily gets you shot down. The easy way to learn to eyeball your turn performance is to first do it by the numbers and get it right. When you learn how the "right move" looks you can then maybe learn to eyeball it. While it's also possible to learn the "right moves" by eyeballing it takes considerable effort and time to do it.

Agreed. Having a few target numbers in your head is a good way to start, especially since we don't have our butts in seats to feel the plane. Of course it matters your weight, altitude, etc... but you gotta have a baseline to start learning. I've never flown the f-5, but I'm getting it tonight, and I'm going to use full fuel, 2 Aim-9, and 380 Kts as my baseline and understand that I'm under powered compared to mig-21, and just feel it out from there, knowing my gut instinct is to yank back on the stick and bleed all my energy :)

Disclaimers: I am not a pilot. The only thing I have ever flown are rectangular sport canopies on the order of 210-250 square feet.

I've found dogfighting with the F-5 against players on Blue Flag that speed is king. I like a clean configuration and as much airspeed as I can possibly have at the merge, because I'm going to be losing it throughout the fight. I found myself out-turning a Flanker when I was coming into the merge at 600 kias (on the deck) and pulling very gently so as to not black out. I wasn't reading my G-meter at the time, but I was able to go from lag pursuit to lead pursuit for a guns kill on him after about a single revolution. He bled a lot of energy trying to get an OBS shot right after the merge, and I was able to get a STR well in excess of his. Not sure how fast he was at the merge.

Smart enemies will pull you into the vertical almost immediately and not let you use your roll-rate to get the advantage against them in horizontal scissors. Going in with extra energy tends to be more advantageous than trying to hit the max STR number, because if the other guy goes vertical, you are hosed trying to push up with only 380 kts in your wallet.