Using "throttle for GS and stick for AOA" when landing - Page 28 - ED Forums
 


Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-13-2018, 09:27 PM   #271
David OC
Senior Member
 
David OC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,644
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ttaylor0024 View Post
It's a little hair raising the first few times you are in bumpy weather, but just like with using an airspeed approach you just kind of average it out. As far as corrections go on glideslope, it corrects quicker than you'd think as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbrz View Post
Sounds like a pretty impressive piece of equipment, your F/A-18!

The mil jets I flew decades ago didn't even have an AoA gauge and the A320 FBW system isn't very capable (and surprisingly slow!)

The more I get the F/A-18 to know the more I'm looking forward to the DCS version It's going to be interesting if the FBW works like in the real one.
Come on bbrz,

We have two Navy pilots and someone also posting detail technical theory as to why they fly the approach this way in the Navy for safety reasons (Past experience, lessons learn etc)

This is the technique the Navy spend a lot of time training on before you can even fly at the carrier, not aircraft specific, this works well on the A10 wings with less power etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curly View Post
It's why the navy trains pilots to respond to shear the same in a way in a turbo prop as in Hornet.
It's OK if you don't want to believe these Navy pilots or Curly's post?

If you are going to pull anything apart to disprove this method the navy teaches to ALL their pilots, Curly's technical theory post is the one to disprove the theory behind it and why it's used on ALL their aircraft.

Also neofightr's post, he list many aircraft, they all use this technique and he explains why it was much harder in these older aircraft.

There are many other IRL pilots here on the forum also bbrz, don't you think they would say something if this technique shouldn't be flow this way on jets or turbo props? and have a good detail reason as to why to not use the backside technique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curly View Post
While flying the backside technique you apply corrections just as you would in a conventional approach. If you encounter winds you don't wait for aircraft to settle either, you actively aviate. It's just your corrections are different.


What is the corrective action when encountering a downburst. It's not just pitch. You apply full power, because pitch alone will kill you.

The backside techniques work just as well and are safer than conventional corrections for shear. Since the ability to fly a specific glide slope is determined by the power available. During a downburst the power requirement goes up because an external force is acting downwards on the craft. Using the backside technique of adding power for glide slope fixes this.

The problem with adding pitch is you trigger a dynamic response. That can exacerbate your primary issue, rapidly increasing descent rate. Lets say there is a down burst and you pull back on the stick to counter. You increase the AOA and therefore the lift coefficient, problem solved right?

Not really because you've increased drag and made your L/D ratio worse. Your now losing speed.
Since lift = .5 * Cl * air density * velocity^2 * area,

We end up with less lift, thus increasing our descent rate. Pitching further compounds the problem we slow further, losing more lift and increasing the descent rate. If we excessively pitch while adding power, your responses are nulling each other out and you don't net out a positive response that will halt the excessive sink rate..

You have more power but less lift, it's easy to doom the aircraft in this manner. That's why the only pitching you should be doing is to keep aircraft the aircraft's angle of attack stable. As the wind will be pushing the nose down.

The backside technique is safer in shear conditions because, you are responding to forces acting on the aircraft which are disrupting the flight path with opposite opposing forces immediately, rather than responding with actions that trigger a dynamic state which may or may not help you.

It's why the navy trains pilots to respond to shear the same in a way in a turbo prop as in Hornet.

http://www.t6bdriver.com/uploads/6/4..._1542.166b.pdf
Quote:
Originally Posted by neofightr View Post
If you are using the stick and throttle to maintain glideslope you are doing it wrong, period regardless of platform. The stick is used for alignment to centerline and maintaining a constant AOA. That is what the pilots are doing in the videos when moving the stick, they are trying to keep that green donut lit and rock steady on the AOA indicator while using the throttle to maintain glideslope by keeping the meatball lined up with the datum lights. That's how it works, period.
What AoA Indicators Don't Do That They Should

"They're being sold as stall awareness devices when in fact, they're really performance-measuring instruments that happen to include stall warning and awareness capability. If you limit them to the latter, they're just a visual version of the stall warning horn or aural alert and that almost guarantees they won't be integrated into the pilot's understanding of what the airplane is doing."






This is also why they hold this optimal AOA and use power for GS (Hook to Deck angle) do you want to correct for this angle setting and power last second when landing?

.
__________________


i7-7700K OC @ 5Ghz | ASUS ROG Maximus IX Hero MB
| ASUS GTX 1080 Ti STRIX | 16GB Corsair Vengeance 3466Mhz | Corsair H100i V2 Radiator | Samsung 960 EVO M.2 NVMe 500G SSD | 2 X Samsung 850 EVO 500G SSD | Oculus Rift | ASUS PG278Q 27-inch, 2560 x 1440, G-SYNC, 144Hz, 1ms | Fractal Design R5 Case

Chuck's DCS Tutorial Library

Download PDF Tutorial guides
to help get up to speed with aircraft quickly and also great for taking a good look at the aircraft available for DCS before purchasing. Link



Last edited by David OC; 03-14-2018 at 07:12 AM.
David OC is offline  
Old 03-13-2018, 10:35 PM   #272
IvanK
ED Testers Team
 
IvanK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: SYD Australia
Posts: 2,283
Default

"the Never ending thread" The NAVY do it for a reason, few land based operators use this technique.

Adding some grist to the mill

Excerpt from the RAAF FA18A/B Flight manual
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	RAAFF19_fnl.jpg
Views:	171
Size:	597.4 KB
ID:	180774  
IvanK is offline  
Old 03-13-2018, 10:45 PM   #273
sslechta
Member
 
sslechta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: St. Louis, USA
Posts: 501
Default

Yeah, I need a refill on my popcorn......
__________________
Steve (Slick)

ThrustMaster T.Flight Hotas X | TrackIR5 Pro | EVGA GTX 1070 | Win10 64-bit Professional | Dell Precision 7920 Workstation | 1 TB SSD | 128 GB Memory | Dual Intel Xeon Platinum 2.0 GHz 16 Core Processors (64 Total w/HT ON) | 24" Dell Monitor
sslechta is offline  
Old 03-14-2018, 01:51 AM   #274
TonyG
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 173
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbrz View Post
What flaws are you talking about?
It’s incapable of compensating for DA, weight, altitude, static port placement issues. There’s a reason it’s an ‘indicated’ airspeed, not a true or calibrated airspeed.
TonyG is offline  
Old 03-14-2018, 07:08 AM   #275
plaiskool
Member
 
plaiskool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: France (baguette, oui oui, olala)
Posts: 147
Default

i confirm

Stick for AOA.
Throttle for glideslope.

if somebody think it's wrong please let me know i will get in touch with landing signal officer association to tell them people on forum think they are wrong since 20 years.
plaiskool is offline  
Old 03-14-2018, 07:26 AM   #276
bbrz
Member
 
bbrz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Europe
Posts: 486
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David OC View Post
Also neofightr's post, he list many aircraft, they all use this technique and he explains why it was much harder in these older aircraft.

There are many other IRL pilots here on the forum also bbrz, don't you think they would say something if this technique shouldn't be flow this way on jets or turbo props? and have a good detail reason as to why to not use the backside technique.
Sigh. NO, it's not about the different techniques and I don't disagree with any of the various techniques!

You still don't understand what I'm talking about, the basics of aircraft control and the effect of wind and turbulence.
Otherwise you wouldn't compare moving within an airmass to riding on top of a water surface and you would know the difference between 'fighting' and 'controlling' an aircraft.

You even quote neofightrs post without actually reading and/or understanding it. He wrote: The stick is used for alignment to centerline and maintaining a constant AOA.

Do you understand the above sentence? Nowhere does it say, don't use the stick for AoA/pitch control.

The F/A-18 apparently has a very capable and advanced FBW system where it isn't necessary to control the AoA/pitch with the stick, but this doesn't apply to non-FBW aircraft and most likely not to every other FBW equipped aicraft.

You are constantly claiming that the 'look ma no hands' (on the stick) is the correct way to fly the A-10 and I'm telling you again that this isn't the case and that this method definitely doesn't work in gusty weather.

It's not about the different techniques, only about your wrong impression that you don't need to actively have to control the AoA/pitch attitude in most aircraft.

As plaiskool mentioned, if you don't actively control AoA/pitch you will enter a phugoid and that's nothing you want.

Last edited by bbrz; 03-14-2018 at 07:40 AM.
bbrz is offline  
Old 03-14-2018, 07:44 AM   #277
David OC
Senior Member
 
David OC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,644
Default

Not even going to answer that comment, I can see your A Little Embarrassed here, your the one arguing with the pro's, because you know better it seems right.

I will leave you to keep arguing with the navy pilots and engineers since page 21 because you know your stuff LOL.

The water in my post was representing the AIR, fluid dynamics, pushing the sea plane skids up the "back side" of the water "before getting up on it's skids", a metaphor etc. Re read my post, you missed read that too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by addde View Post
If u are trimmed correctly when adding power, the nose will raise by itself and there is no reason or need to pull on the stick.
i/e Stick/trim for AoA and throttle for glideslope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbrz View Post
That's not the way to fly any aircraft and it doesn't apply the every plane either.

You never let an aircraft fly you. E.g. apply power and wait for the pitch attitude to change. You always actively control e.g. pitch and power.

Furthermore you are talking about long term flight path changes which can occur (depending on the aircraft) but that's not active aircraft control.

There are aircraft which do exactly the opposite when applying power and aircraft which don't change the pitch attitude at all when applying power, not even in the long term.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttaylor0024 View Post
That's exactly how it's done actually, you really don't have to bump the stick forward or aft. Power controls you. You're going to get some bad oscillations through on speed and some bad grades if you go around controlling the nose on the approach.
__________________


i7-7700K OC @ 5Ghz | ASUS ROG Maximus IX Hero MB
| ASUS GTX 1080 Ti STRIX | 16GB Corsair Vengeance 3466Mhz | Corsair H100i V2 Radiator | Samsung 960 EVO M.2 NVMe 500G SSD | 2 X Samsung 850 EVO 500G SSD | Oculus Rift | ASUS PG278Q 27-inch, 2560 x 1440, G-SYNC, 144Hz, 1ms | Fractal Design R5 Case

Chuck's DCS Tutorial Library

Download PDF Tutorial guides
to help get up to speed with aircraft quickly and also great for taking a good look at the aircraft available for DCS before purchasing. Link



Last edited by David OC; 03-14-2018 at 07:47 AM.
David OC is offline  
Old 03-14-2018, 07:50 AM   #278
bbrz
Member
 
bbrz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Europe
Posts: 486
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyG View Post
It’s incapable of compensating for DA, weight, altitude, static port placement issues. There’s a reason it’s an ‘indicated’ airspeed, not a true or calibrated airspeed.
Now that's a really weird statement. Why should an ASI compensate for weight? If two identical aircraft at different weight are instructed to fly e.g. 250kts, which one would fly at the 'correct' 250kts?
Why should it indicate TAS? Since most stall speed tables are in IAS and an aircraft stalls (in level flight) due to low IAS and certainly not TAS.

Looks like you have the wrong expectation of what an ASI should do. (Furthermore there are of course ASIs which indicate TAS and Mach)
bbrz is offline  
Old 03-14-2018, 07:53 AM   #279
bbrz
Member
 
bbrz's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Europe
Posts: 486
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David OC View Post
Not even going to answer that comment, I can see your A Little Embarrassed here, your the one arguing with the pro's, because you know better it seems right.
Don't know if you start trolling now or if you are simply posting just to write something.
You are comparing apples and oranges and apparently don't understand (or don't want to understand) anything.

Btw, 'Not even going to answer that comment', the standard reply for people who are running out of valid arguments.

Last edited by bbrz; 03-14-2018 at 08:01 AM.
bbrz is offline  
Old 03-14-2018, 08:01 AM   #280
David OC
Senior Member
 
David OC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,644
Default

I thought you were the one trolling here when only arguing with the navy pilots and engineer in this thread, when they were trying to explain to us and (YOU = not understanding) this navy technique to fly any aircraft with an AOA indexer.

.
__________________


i7-7700K OC @ 5Ghz | ASUS ROG Maximus IX Hero MB
| ASUS GTX 1080 Ti STRIX | 16GB Corsair Vengeance 3466Mhz | Corsair H100i V2 Radiator | Samsung 960 EVO M.2 NVMe 500G SSD | 2 X Samsung 850 EVO 500G SSD | Oculus Rift | ASUS PG278Q 27-inch, 2560 x 1440, G-SYNC, 144Hz, 1ms | Fractal Design R5 Case

Chuck's DCS Tutorial Library

Download PDF Tutorial guides
to help get up to speed with aircraft quickly and also great for taking a good look at the aircraft available for DCS before purchasing. Link



Last edited by David OC; 03-14-2018 at 08:08 AM.
David OC is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:06 AM. vBulletin Skin by ForumMonkeys. Powered by vBulletin®.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.