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Old 02-22-2018, 10:40 AM   #41
Captain Orso
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I'm going to necro my own thread, because we now have the B-17, although not complete in any sense of the word, we might soon have a new DM, and I see no viable way to put the B-17s to use in their historical role as a high altitude bomber, with current ME resources, nor P-51s in their role as escorts, without creating restrictively long missions for open-play servers.

Why do I think it cannot be reasonably done? There are basically two ways to do this.

1. Start a mission with everybody on the ground, everybody has to start-up, climb to mission altitude and fly to the mission area. This means much of the mission time is spent just climbing and flying, and I've already heard many complaints about missions where you start far from the active area of the map, that the player is forced to fly for 5-10 minutes just to get into the action. With such a bombing mission, the advance flight time will be even greater(!!). Interceptors will be in much the same situation, only they would be over the designated bombing mission target well in advance of the bombers, or more likely, they would sortie out to intercept the bombers long before they have come close to their targets. After all, if it's a known mission, the intercepting side will inevitably know where the bombers are coming from, and will be able to intercept them far in advance, which is certainly not realistic, nor does it lend itself to a good mission IMHO.

Such a mission would be a one time shot, as far as the bombing/escort mission itself goes, and it would last for well over an hour, which means, anybody joining the server after mission start would miss out on the meat of the mission. Maybe they might catch up with the bombers on their way back, but only maybe. More likely players would simply say, forget it, bc they don't want to wait however long for the mission to restart before they could actually take part in the action.

So to enjoy the mission challenges you would have to be there right when the mission starts, and most of the time in the mission would be just flying to and from the bomber's target.

I don't think that makes for a good mission for pick-up players on an open server.

2. You could air-start everybody at the same time with the bombers already at altitude not too far from their target, and with escorts already in position, as well as interceptors. This could be done now with current ME resources, but it would still have two issues IMHO.

A. There would be no kind of balance, because AFAIK there is no system for doing this in DCS. If 5 players join as interceptors and only one as escort, too bad for the escort.

B. We would still have the unlimited-lives-syndrome situation. IE if you fly recklessly and get shoot down, it doesn't matter much, because you can simply respawn back in 10 seconds later.

This type of mission would have the advantage of being fairly accessible to pick-up players, but I think it could be done better with the right ME resources.

--

So what resources would we need?

1. Empty slots should be filled by AI at mission start. Then regardless of how many players joined each side, even if none joined one side, the mission would still have a viable balance, and be challenging for all the players; ofc this is considering the new DM and the AI working more realistically, both of which are on their way, or being worked on right now.

2. A pre-mission staging--kind of a lobby, where players could chat, decide which slots they wish to fly, and generally get ready for an air-start.

3. One mission, one life.

--

My thoughts are that with these resources a mission could be created which only represented a short period of time before the bombers reached their target until they had left the area, so maybe something like starting 10-20 miles away form the bombing target, and ending when the last bomber left the area, or an arbitrary time limit after the last bomber was shoot down.

The mission would only last around 10-15 minutes, being the real meat of a bombing mission, getting over target with interceptors trying to down as many bombers as possible before the bombers dropped their loads, and pushing their attacks to take down as many bombers afterwards, while the escorts would ofc try to prevent this. So, a mission very much like the situation over Europe during the bombing campaign, but limited to just the part where the real action was.

If the ME allowed it, it could be created so that once the mission started, no players could join the mission. Ofc they could join the server as observers until the mission restarted, but if the mission were created well, that shouldn't be very long. Every player would have 1 life and would be forced to act like it or wait for the mission to restart. Since the missions would not last very long, late-comers and lost pilots would never have to wait very long for the next mission to start.

We would finally have escorts and interceptors flying their actual roles. Interceptors would have to decide whether to concentrate on attacking the bombers or taking out the escorts, and escorts would have to decide whether to stay and guard the bombers or chase down the interceptors. The situation would be far different than what we have now at any rate.

I think this kind of mission would be a lot of fun to fly.
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Old 03-05-2018, 03:31 PM   #42
Kyridious
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Originally Posted by Captain Orso View Post
I'm going to necro my own thread, because we now have the B-17, although not complete in any sense of the word, we might soon have a new DM, and I see no viable way to put the B-17s to use in their historical role as a high altitude bomber, with current ME resources, nor P-51s in their role as escorts, without creating restrictively long missions for open-play servers.

Why do I think it cannot be reasonably done? There are basically two ways to do this.

1. Start a mission with everybody on the ground, everybody has to start-up, climb to mission altitude and fly to the mission area. This means much of the mission time is spent just climbing and flying, and I've already heard many complaints about missions where you start far from the active area of the map, that the player is forced to fly for 5-10 minutes just to get into the action. With such a bombing mission, the advance flight time will be even greater(!!). Interceptors will be in much the same situation, only they would be over the designated bombing mission target well in advance of the bombers, or more likely, they would sortie out to intercept the bombers long before they have come close to their targets. After all, if it's a known mission, the intercepting side will inevitably know where the bombers are coming from, and will be able to intercept them far in advance, which is certainly not realistic, nor does it lend itself to a good mission IMHO.

Such a mission would be a one time shot, as far as the bombing/escort mission itself goes, and it would last for well over an hour, which means, anybody joining the server after mission start would miss out on the meat of the mission. Maybe they might catch up with the bombers on their way back, but only maybe. More likely players would simply say, forget it, bc they don't want to wait however long for the mission to restart before they could actually take part in the action.

So to enjoy the mission challenges you would have to be there right when the mission starts, and most of the time in the mission would be just flying to and from the bomber's target.

I don't think that makes for a good mission for pick-up players on an open server.

2. You could air-start everybody at the same time with the bombers already at altitude not too far from their target, and with escorts already in position, as well as interceptors. This could be done now with current ME resources, but it would still have two issues IMHO.

A. There would be no kind of balance, because AFAIK there is no system for doing this in DCS. If 5 players join as interceptors and only one as escort, too bad for the escort.

B. We would still have the unlimited-lives-syndrome situation. IE if you fly recklessly and get shoot down, it doesn't matter much, because you can simply respawn back in 10 seconds later.

This type of mission would have the advantage of being fairly accessible to pick-up players, but I think it could be done better with the right ME resources.

--

So what resources would we need?

1. Empty slots should be filled by AI at mission start. Then regardless of how many players joined each side, even if none joined one side, the mission would still have a viable balance, and be challenging for all the players; ofc this is considering the new DM and the AI working more realistically, both of which are on their way, or being worked on right now.

2. A pre-mission staging--kind of a lobby, where players could chat, decide which slots they wish to fly, and generally get ready for an air-start.

3. One mission, one life.

--

My thoughts are that with these resources a mission could be created which only represented a short period of time before the bombers reached their target until they had left the area, so maybe something like starting 10-20 miles away form the bombing target, and ending when the last bomber left the area, or an arbitrary time limit after the last bomber was shoot down.

The mission would only last around 10-15 minutes, being the real meat of a bombing mission, getting over target with interceptors trying to down as many bombers as possible before the bombers dropped their loads, and pushing their attacks to take down as many bombers afterwards, while the escorts would ofc try to prevent this. So, a mission very much like the situation over Europe during the bombing campaign, but limited to just the part where the real action was.

If the ME allowed it, it could be created so that once the mission started, no players could join the mission. Ofc they could join the server as observers until the mission restarted, but if the mission were created well, that shouldn't be very long. Every player would have 1 life and would be forced to act like it or wait for the mission to restart. Since the missions would not last very long, late-comers and lost pilots would never have to wait very long for the next mission to start.

We would finally have escorts and interceptors flying their actual roles. Interceptors would have to decide whether to concentrate on attacking the bombers or taking out the escorts, and escorts would have to decide whether to stay and guard the bombers or chase down the interceptors. The situation would be far different than what we have now at any rate.

I think this kind of mission would be a lot of fun to fly.






Howdy, I created a sort of framework to enable this very type of mission. However, I felt it was too clunky for primetime and I've let it weather in the hanger. It uses a combination of slot blocking and server pausing to synchronize players into flights. Rounds are designed to last 10-20 minutes, all assets dynamically spawned so you don't replay the same geometry etc.


In brief, it works like this:
- Players join the server
- The players select a slot representing a position in the formation
- When the next round begins, the sim is paused and players are automatically moved from their FORMATION slot to the corresponding MISSION slot. While the game is still paused, pilots click "fly" to spawn into their mission aircraft. Note: The mission slot can be obfuscated to hide spawn locations.
- After a short countdown, the mission is unpaused. All players are in formation and get mission details via radio messages.
- No respawns, although crashed pilots can always fly around using "practice" slots.
- At the end of a round, all players are kicked back to spectators and must re-select a FORMATION slot before the next round begins.


It works! (not tested in 2.5) But frankly, the lack of players online have curbed my enthusiasm for polishing the product. I'd be happy to tackle it again if there is sufficient interest.


Cheers,
Andrew
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Old 03-06-2018, 11:27 PM   #43
Hub
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyridious View Post
Howdy, I created a sort of framework to enable this very type of mission. However, I felt it was too clunky for primetime and I've let it weather in the hanger. It uses a combination of slot blocking and server pausing to synchronize players into flights. Rounds are designed to last 10-20 minutes, all assets dynamically spawned so you don't replay the same geometry etc.


In brief, it works like this:
- Players join the server
- The players select a slot representing a position in the formation
- When the next round begins, the sim is paused and players are automatically moved from their FORMATION slot to the corresponding MISSION slot. While the game is still paused, pilots click "fly" to spawn into their mission aircraft. Note: The mission slot can be obfuscated to hide spawn locations.
- After a short countdown, the mission is unpaused. All players are in formation and get mission details via radio messages.
- No respawns, although crashed pilots can always fly around using "practice" slots.
- At the end of a round, all players are kicked back to spectators and must re-select a FORMATION slot before the next round begins.


It works! (not tested in 2.5) But frankly, the lack of players online have curbed my enthusiasm for polishing the product. I'd be happy to tackle it again if there is sufficient interest.


Cheers,
Andrew


Sounds awesome. And would be interested ! Hopefully some new ground attack and escort missions get
Put up on the servers


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Old 03-08-2018, 09:11 AM   #44
muehlema
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I would love to see some BoB Mission spam, for single player

Bf109 and Spitfire ones
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Old 03-10-2018, 02:24 PM   #45
Captain Orso
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyridious View Post
Howdy, I created a sort of framework to enable this very type of mission. However, I felt it was too clunky for primetime and I've let it weather in the hanger. It uses a combination of slot blocking and server pausing to synchronize players into flights. Rounds are designed to last 10-20 minutes, all assets dynamically spawned so you don't replay the same geometry etc.


In brief, it works like this:
- Players join the server
- The players select a slot representing a position in the formation
- When the next round begins, the sim is paused and players are automatically moved from their FORMATION slot to the corresponding MISSION slot. While the game is still paused, pilots click "fly" to spawn into their mission aircraft. Note: The mission slot can be obfuscated to hide spawn locations.
- After a short countdown, the mission is unpaused. All players are in formation and get mission details via radio messages.
- No respawns, although crashed pilots can always fly around using "practice" slots.
- At the end of a round, all players are kicked back to spectators and must re-select a FORMATION slot before the next round begins.


It works! (not tested in 2.5) But frankly, the lack of players online have curbed my enthusiasm for polishing the product. I'd be happy to tackle it again if there is sufficient interest.


Cheers,
Andrew
I was going to answer your answer a while ago, but I got sidetracked and forgot - sorry

I cannot image the work that went into scripting this. My hat of to you

... but that's exactly the point. I believe setting up such a mission ought to be as simple as setting up any other mission, and not require special scripting skills and huge amounts of effort.
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Old 03-12-2018, 02:47 PM   #46
Aluminum Donkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Orso View Post
In one of the other threads, somebody conjectured that once the new toys are here (Spitfire and P-47D) Air Quake will start to disappear as the most prevalent Mission on MP servers. I have serious doubts to that, but time will tell.
Air start for both sides.
Allies have a bunch of B-17's flying at 20,000 feet with escorts overhead (non-filled slots controlled by AI).
Axis coming in from some direction, possibly the direction decided randomly, so the Allies don't know exactly from which direction they will be coming.
After 10 minutes of flight, the B-17s reach the target area, run into flak, the Axis interceptors have to break off attacks while the B-17s start their bombing runs, the mission ends and points are awarded for kills (maybe damage?) and bombers over target.
Here's my favourite quick mission profile:

1) Take off
2) Fly somewhere
3) Blow $#!* up!

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