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Old 10-21-2018, 10:10 AM   #11
Ala13_ManOWar
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Originally Posted by birdstrike View Post
please reread my opening post. pretty much all your questions are covered in there.
Then please reread my post again. Any further info we can test by ourselves or something?


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It's not like from time to time something doesn't get broken in DCS, it happens, but if it is you should go to the specific model forum and ask about it. Is it you realised this now or it happens now but not before? Then something maybe really broken obviously. It is for all the models the same or model specific? Are you in Open Beta or release? All that matters, a post saying "I think this should be like that instead of this" says few.



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Old 10-21-2018, 10:23 AM   #12
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What speed reference(s) are you using ?

Beware that with the exeption, I believe. of the Spitfire, the ASIs in DCS do not ( yet ) model pitot errors due to sideslip.

In a real aircraft a sideslip will introduce "dramatic" reading errors and show a much lower IAS than the actual aircraft speed ( TAS ).

My experience with DCS was - I have to check if anything changed in between … - that indeed sideslips had a plausible impact on aircraft performance, not only flight dynamics wise but even systems wise ( like the effects o radiators efficiency in the P51d ). Maybe something changed ?

I'll check it at home ASAP and report back.
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Old 10-21-2018, 10:39 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by birdstrike View Post
interesting as we do this all the time online.
In order to achieve top speed you have to keep straight and level a certain time with the aircraft perfectly trimmed and in good atmospheric conditions. So still I don't think you fly perfect formation @top speed . I've flown years of Virtual aerobatics and formation flying and no, I think you're mistaking concepts here, sorry.


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… and in dcs its not a bit less, it makes no difference, up until you start to really cross controls. being lazy on the rudder doesnt have any negative impact. and thats my concern.
DCS does model control surfaces drag according to deflection, I think it makes a difference even if it's not the one you believe. In my experience IRL it's the same with low controls deflection, trimming indeed means low control permanent deflection and it helps with higher speeds lowering drag, not the opposite. So again, I think you're mistaking concepts here.


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… and no, it doesnt need to gain airspeed with sideslipping in real life. that completely depends on the type you fly. several types i fly do the exact opposite. they will bleed plenty of speed as soon as you cross controls even if you dive.(well im not speaking of a vertical dive here). and they already lose noticeable speed when not focusing on keeping the ball in center
It doesn't need, but it can if you don't watch the horizon, tell my former instructor . DCS warbirds do sideslip, bleed energy and increase variometer drop very nicely, of course in a different way depending on the model. If you don't mean a recent change in a latter version that shouldn't be there they do and very realistically I have to say.


So again, if you don't have any further and better information and it's only your feeling I don't thing we can help with that more than explaining the already explained as it works as they're supposed to do.


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Last edited by Ala13_ManOWar; 10-21-2018 at 07:53 PM.
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Old 10-21-2018, 11:31 AM   #14
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Just came out of testing, Yak-52, Bf109, P51d and Spitfire, using RAlt-Y to see TAS in F2 view, and while trying to maintain V/s after entering sideslip they all consistently dropped it.


Looks like it's OK, at least on my version ( latest Open beta ).
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Old 10-21-2018, 11:51 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Ala13_ManOWar View Post
In order to achieve top speed you have to keep straight and level a certain time with the aircraft perfectly trimmed and in good atmospheric conditions. So still I don't think you fly perfect formation @top speed . I've flown years of Virtual aerobatics and formation flying and no, I think you're mistaking concepts here, sorry.
again, thats not the topic here...you can try and twist the topic and insist on your trimmed out top speed...once more for you: at the same trim, fuel and power settings, we couldnt notice any difference flying a several minutes next to each other, with the one flying coordinated, and the other not...this is repeatable, and we have done it plenty of times. it doesnt matter at all, if both aircraft are trimmed out perfectly, or not trimmed out at all, as long as they have the exact same trim settings...your trimmed out top speed is irrelevant to this topic. trimming is not the topic here, except for some reason you keep bringing this up, while nobody is questioning the effects of it in dcs here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ala13_ManOWar View Post
DCS does model control surfaces drag according to deflection, I think it makes a difference even if it's not the one you believe. In my experience IRL it's the same with low controls deflection, trimming indeed means low control permanent deflection and it helps with higher speeds lowering drag, not the opposite. So again, I think you're mistaking concepts here.
control surfaces drag...again, reread my OP, as that was pretty much the first thing i said.
fuselage drag though i doubt it tbh hence the issue we experience i guess.
its not me mistaking concepts, but you mistaking the topic here as you still keep talking about trim states.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ala13_ManOWar View Post
It doesn't need, but it can if you don't watch the horizon, tell my former instructor . DCS warbirds does sideslip, bleed energy and increase variometer drop very nicely, of course in a different way depending on the model. If you don't mean a recent change in a latter version that shouldn't be there they do and very realistically I have to say.
reread my posts. pronounced sideslips with crossed controls will cause drag.slight to medium slips, i.e. flying straight with the feet off the pedals, having the ball somewhere to the right or left, dont. i said this repeatedly beginning in my OP. the rest is off topic.


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Originally Posted by Ala13_ManOWar View Post
So again, if you don't have any further and better information and it's only your feeling I don't thing we can help with that more than explaining the already explained as it works as they're supposed to do.
further and better information? i pointed out the issue we experience in detail. there is nohting more to add to it and nobody is stopping you to test it yourself. you cant help anyway, except you are an ED dev responsible for the FM. you can insist and keep arguing that everything is alright and that you feel its perfectly realistic. that doesnt make it true nevertheless.
and once more, reread my previous posts, i already told you that i also tested this with a couple a friends online. so its not only my feeling. to further observe it, i addionally tried it offline with the info bar open showing TAS.

Last edited by birdstrike; 10-21-2018 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 10-21-2018, 08:25 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by birdstrike View Post
further and better information? i pointed out the issue we experience in detail. there is nohting more to add to it and nobody is stopping you to test it yourself. you cant help anyway, except you are an ED dev responsible for the FM. you can insist and keep arguing that everything is alright and that you feel its perfectly realistic. that doesnt make it true nevertheless.
and once more, reread my previous posts, i already told you that i also tested this with a couple a friends online. so its not only my feeling. to further observe it, i addionally tried it offline with the info bar open showing TAS.
Mate, yeah, further information, we still don't know which aircraft you talk about, is it all of them? If that's the case then I hardly doubt your "feeling", just saying but remember host mission settings (including realism options) are the ones used for everybody online, many things could happen. Is it in stable or Open Beta version? Did it happen before or is a new thing? In which mission/map/weather conditions does it happen? you know the kind of further information that's expected in order to try to be helpful .



Quote:
Originally Posted by birdstrike View Post
again, thats not the topic here...you can try and twist the topic and insist on your trimmed out top speed...once more for you: at the same trim, fuel and power settings, we couldnt notice any difference flying a several minutes next to each other, with the one flying coordinated, and the other not...this is repeatable, and we have done it plenty of times. it doesnt matter at all, if both aircraft are trimmed out perfectly, or not trimmed out at all, as long as they have the exact same trim settings...your trimmed out top speed is irrelevant to this topic. trimming is not the topic here, except for some reason you keep bringing this up, while nobody is questioning the effects of it in dcs here.
As said, lower deflections aren't increasing the drag like you think to believe. Put the ball to one full side and see if you can still keep formation with exact same power, though nobody knows in which aircraft to the date.


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Originally Posted by birdstrike View Post
control surfaces drag...again, reread my OP, as that was pretty much the first thing i said.
fuselage drag though i doubt it tbh hence the issue we experience i guess.
its not me mistaking concepts, but you mistaking the topic here as you still keep talking about trim states.
No, still you mistaking concepts as you keep to believe RL aircraft have to fly the way you say they do. Fuselage drag isn't your problem in-flight, control and lift surfaces are the ones making the huge drag here (not to mention a huge propeller in front of you), lower deflection/low AoA/lower torque equals lower drag and viceversa. Further statements are yours only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by birdstrike View Post
further and better information? i pointed out the issue we experience in detail. there is nohting more to add to it and nobody is stopping you to test it yourself. you cant help anyway, except you are an ED dev responsible for the FM. you can insist and keep arguing that everything is alright and that you feel its perfectly realistic. that doesnt make it true nevertheless.
and once more, reread my previous posts, i already told you that i also tested this with a couple a friends online. so its not only my feeling. to further observe it, i addionally tried it offline with the info bar open showing TAS.
No, you pointed out YOUR feelings and we don't even know yet in which aircraft or under which conditions. I already explained a few things and how they work and if you don't say it's a broken thing since the last version I don't have to test anything as I perfectly know how DCS warbirds perform. Sorry if you think I missed the target, but I don't understand why you don't tell us what on Earth were you flying .


Please understand, if you have something to say about a broken feature in recent versions fine, it can be tested. But if you say it happens in every warbird in DCS since ever and you just happen to come now (and not since 2012 P-51 was first released... ) to say they are wrong… Sorry mate but they are perfectly fine and the problem is in your (wrong) feelings. So please search for a better explain (with details) of something that is really happening or it's simply not .



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Old 10-21-2018, 09:24 PM   #17
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try to actually read

Last edited by birdstrike; 10-21-2018 at 09:36 PM.
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Old 10-23-2018, 02:10 PM   #18
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try to actually read
DCS is a great title but it certainly isn't the end all/be all of flight modeling. There are poorly modeled aspects especially in the prop driven straight wing airplanes.

You are not going to get much traction on these boards trying to convince the fan boys the FM's are not perfect simulations of the real thing. They have too much wrapped up in the whole "this is EXACTLY like the real thing" wackiness to admit imperfection.

It is unlikely form drag during a side slip is correctly modeled. There would be no data. The title started as a jet sim and, in general, you don't slip a jet. I doubt anyone on the development team has any clear idea of the differences between flying a high performance piston engine aircraft and a swept wing jet. That is not their fault. It takes a few thousand hours at the controls of multiple types covering straight and swept wing, prop and jet to have the experience to properly discern the idiosyncrasies. Few have that breadth of experience.

The props fly like jets, especially when it comes to aspects of the flight model that relate to uncoordinated flight, the effect of engine torque, slipstream effects and stall behavior. That is unlikely to change from the reactions I have seen on this board.

You are best served understanding the limitations of the FM and deciding if you can live with them.
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Old 10-23-2018, 02:31 PM   #19
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yeah i was kind of hoping to get an answer by some dev whether they see room for improvement in future in this regard or not...
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Old 10-25-2018, 08:38 PM   #20
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yeah i was kind of hoping to get an answer by some dev whether they see room for improvement in future in this regard or not...
+1

Btw your explanation was understandable
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