Best dog fighting move in a F-16 from a true F-16 pilot - ED Forums
 


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Old 01-14-2020, 01:58 PM   #1
oldtimesake
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Default Best dog fighting move in a F-16 from a true F-16 pilot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDfEZcafrXI&t=973s
(check the comments, not the video)

By Nimrod

Ex F16 pilot here; yeah at slow speed your limited at aoa for nose pointing, but rolling scissors all the way baby????
But you don’t want to be slow speed anyway

Best technique is at the merge full G straight up over the top.
Best thing your enemy can do is match that and you meet head on again. If he doesn’t he’s toast because you are coming over the top and gravity is helping only thing you have to do is roll inside his turn radius and set up for the kill

My takeaways:

F-16 has decent T/W ratio and energy retention in the vertical to pull these Immelman-like moves consecutively. An enemy can do the same maneuver but it will run out of energy earlier and quit the maneuver and go downwards. The gravity and F-16's superior roll rate can help it to roll inside the enemy's turning circle.

Last edited by oldtimesake; 01-14-2020 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 01-14-2020, 02:05 PM   #2
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there is no sets of moves or single maneuver could win the Dogfight, if you have such experience, it means the enemy didn`t know how to fight.

Youtobe is a great thing. someone upload the Art of Kill long time ago, it was the the instructional video on 1v1 dogfight by a F16 IP. I think it is more useful than just someone said : This move will let you win.
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Old 01-14-2020, 02:09 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Contact409 View Post
there is no sets of moves or single maneuver could win the Dogfight, if you have such experience, it means the enemy didn`t know how to fight.

Youtobe is a great thing. someone upload the Art of Kill long time ago, it was the the instructional video on 1v1 dogfight by a F16 IP. I think it is more useful than just someone said : This move will let you win.
If anyone is wondering what that is, see here:

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Old 01-14-2020, 04:10 PM   #4
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The favorite move should be the "slice" according to Pete Bonanni


The quickest way to get your nose around on the bandit is by initiating a lead turn slice into the bandit. To do this maneuver, start an immediate 8 G lead turn into the bandit with your nose about 10° below the horizon when the line-of-sight rate of the bandit starts to increase. By pulling around with your nose low, you will gain the use of gravity which will preserve your airspeed and increase your effective turn rate.


"The slice is one of the Viper (F-16) pilot’s favorite moves. The reason is simple. The F-16 can out-turn anything in the sky, so a big lead turn executed nose-low will intimidate the bandit. After completing the turn, you will have gained angles on the bandit and still have plenty of energy for the next turn. The disadvantage of the slice is that it is a high-G, nose-low maneuver that places the bandit at deep six and out of sight momentarily. This is not too big a disadvantage if you know where to look for him as you come out of the turn"
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Old 01-14-2020, 04:37 PM   #5
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I would think that there is no universal “best move”. A vertical climb that works in an F-16 carrying 50% fuel and 2 AAMs at 800 knots vs an SU-27 loaded with 8 AAMs at 400 knots might be perfect. Would it be something you want to do if your viper is at 80% fuel, carrying 6AAMs, at 400 knots and merging with a Mig 29 at 800 knots? If your F-16 is at an energy disadvantage against an aircraft (like a mig 29) with a small turn radius, then maybe a one-circle
Turn relying on high AoA to bring your nose around is best. Maybe not if your at low speed (300knots) vs an F-18

I don’t see how there can possibly be a universal “best move”. All situational based on your aircrafts loadout, energy and mission vs the other aircraft, it’s strengths, weaknesses and current flight characteristics.
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:11 PM   #6
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I would think that there is no universal “best move”. A vertical climb that works in an F-16 carrying 50% fuel and 2 AAMs at 800 knots vs an SU-27 loaded with 8 AAMs at 400 knots might be perfect. Would it be something you want to do if your viper is at 80% fuel, carrying 6AAMs, at 400 knots and merging with a Mig 29 at 800 knots? If your F-16 is at an energy disadvantage against an aircraft (like a mig 29) with a small turn radius, then maybe a one-circle
Turn relying on high AoA to bring your nose around is best. Maybe not if your at low speed (300knots) vs an F-18

I don’t see how there can possibly be a universal “best move”. All situational based on your aircrafts loadout, energy and mission vs the other aircraft, it’s strengths, weaknesses and current flight characteristics.
So true!

Or in the words of Pete Bonanni himself: https://youtu.be/OCFMX5z-ed4?t=862
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Old 01-15-2020, 01:01 AM   #7
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Old 01-15-2020, 01:18 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconeer View Post
The favorite move should be the "slice" according to Pete Bonanni


The quickest way to get your nose around on the bandit is by initiating a lead turn slice into the bandit. To do this maneuver, start an immediate 8 G lead turn into the bandit with your nose about 10° below the horizon when the line-of-sight rate of the bandit starts to increase. By pulling around with your nose low, you will gain the use of gravity which will preserve your airspeed and increase your effective turn rate.


"The slice is one of the Viper (F-16) pilot’s favorite moves. The reason is simple. The F-16 can out-turn anything in the sky, so a big lead turn executed nose-low will intimidate the bandit. After completing the turn, you will have gained angles on the bandit and still have plenty of energy for the next turn. The disadvantage of the slice is that it is a high-G, nose-low maneuver that places the bandit at deep six and out of sight momentarily. This is not too big a disadvantage if you know where to look for him as you come out of the turn"
Humor aside, trading in some potential to get your nose around is certainly a reasonable thing to do. Never heard it called a "slice" or a "move." Usually called a turn.

But more importantly, wtf am I watching? Why is this guy... I actually don't know what he's doing... but the audience and content? Is this like some 90s era recruiting or ROTC thing?

Also why is his duty uniform so tight? And... thin? I am confused.

Killer mustache though
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Old 01-15-2020, 01:58 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sk000tch View Post
... but the audience and content? Is this like some 90s era recruiting or ROTC thing?

Also why is his duty uniform so tight? And... thin? I am confused.

Killer mustache though
Blasphemy!

It's for the old Falcon series. IIRC this came with a Special Edition of 3.0 from the early 90's. Pete Bonanni was a USAF Fighter Weapons IP who became one of the lead SME consultants for Spectrum Holobyte and Microprose. I have the book version of Art of the Kill and it's still very relevant. I think he was still a reserve F-16 pilot when this was produced but he didn't want to break any regs and took all his patches off. I have no idea who the audience is. Maybe some employees of Spectrum?

Pg. 93 "The Slice"
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Old 01-15-2020, 03:03 AM   #10
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Pete Bonanni is a legend... with a moustache like that how could he not be.

Hehe that was some nostalgia from the first combat sim I played.
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