[BUG] tcs wont slave to radar properly with human rio

While I find it funny it's not a joke at all. In a dogfight I keep my eyeballs on the bandit out of the canopy trying to kill him or deny his nose on me. What you and eatthis talk about are not really dogfighting situations. So I really agree with these TCS uses.

I'm talking about WVR. There is no need for radar IFF if you're already WVR. The pilot can check a radar lock on his DDD and WVR its usually the pilot who is in control of the radar anyways, so the RIO can keep an eye on the enemy on the TCS.

 

Exactly! I was talking about WVR situations and WVR situations only and there the pilot should keep his eyes out of the cockpit! :thumbup:

While admittedly my examples were for the 15-20 nm range, because in my mind it's one of the most critical stages the pilot actually needs to see the other plane, it doesn't mean it's any less critical the RIO stay off the TCS while WVR.

I'll tell you why, as the pilot I need to see the closure rate provided by the TID to accurately make a judgement call on whether or not to be in gate, corner speed or somewhere in between to make maneuvers to counter what the bandit is doing. The sliding bar of the HUD doesn't provide the required fidelity to make that judgement.

I cannot get this information if the RIO is using the TCS, further more, during the chase the TCS let's me see the aspect of the bandit easily, and clearly, allowing me to see the vapors on the aircraft thus knowing it's pulling G bleeding airspeed, something which isn't easy to see outside the cockpit if you're slightly more than one mile separation. Even further, WVR, the RIO's head should also be out of the cockpit looking for missile launches, so they can employ the counter measures. Especially since the likelihood of a radar lock being significantly small during maneuvers to gain angles thus the TCS up on the RIO will only deny the pilot the ability to read the closure rate should he acquire PAL/VSL lock at any time.

I simply cannot see how the RIO using the TCS within visual range is ever a good idea.

I'll share a story to help bolster my case. It's one of the best/most fun times I've had playing DCS.

I went up with my pilot on GS, and we engaged a Hornet just at the mountains past Nalchik. I IFF the bogey as hostile, add we engaged with the Phoenix. They successfully defeated it using a combination of the notch and terrain masking. We decided to go down into the mountains with them, but it was a hunt as we no longer had a bead on their position.

They would get our nails, and us theirs, but neither of us could find one another. While my pilot was driving around in PAL with the TCS up (not that it was going to him any good with how it works now) I had my head outside, and I visually picked up the Hornet. It took some work as we crossed one another, looped over, and scissored as I talked my pilot onto the Hornet for the eventual 9M kill.

Here's the important part, my pilot never saw the bandit, and PAL never locked them up. I told him he's off our 12, the sidewinder got tone, so he let it loose. The TCS might have gotten a contrast lock (since the cross is where the sidewinder looks), but we'll never know because it doesn't sync to the pilot, and I was busy keeping my eyeballs on the actual contact instead of looking at the TCS.

(since the cross is where the sidewinder looks)

really? they are slaved to each other??

or did you mean thats where the cameras looking?

excellent example of teamwork there

(since the cross is where the sidewinder looks)

really? they are slaved to each other??

or did you mean thats where the cameras looking?

In AIM-9 mode the cross shows seeker's LOS.

@BodyOrgan: It's highly improbable to find a target automatically by an accidental TCS lock when you don't know where to look - search pattern is very small, even then RIO must control and set it that way. I still can't find your claims for TCS use in a dogfight any serious. The gimbal limit up is +11 degrees - that's pretty much firing solution (you can see the target up front) and technically useless up close, losing lock with any harder maneuver.

I'll share a story to help bolster my case. It's one of the best/most fun times I've had playing DCS.

 

I went up with my pilot on GS, and we engaged a Hornet just at the mountains past Nalchik. I IFF the bogey as hostile, add we engaged with the Phoenix. They successfully defeated it using a combination of the notch and terrain masking. We decided to go down into the mountains with them, but it was a hunt as we no longer had a bead on their position.

 

They would get our nails, and us theirs, but neither of us could find one another. While my pilot was driving around in PAL with the TCS up (not that it was going to him any good with how it works now) I had my head outside, and I visually picked up the Hornet. It took some work as we crossed one another, looped over, and scissored as I talked my pilot onto the Hornet for the eventual 9M kill.

 

Here's the important part, my pilot never saw the bandit, and PAL never locked them up. I told him he's off our 12, the sidewinder got tone, so he let it loose. The TCS might have gotten a contrast lock (since the cross is where the sidewinder looks), but we'll never know because it doesn't sync to the pilot, and I was busy keeping my eyeballs on the actual contact instead of looking at the TCS.

That story doesn't bolster anything as this is just a weird encounter that could have gone totally different just as likely. If the pilot would have picked up the bandit visually instead of the RIO it would have been a totally different story.

Besides the tactical implications on who should "host the TCS", there's also a pretty plain and simple technical one: The RIO is in control of the TCS! He can slew it around using his HCU. That would be pretty much impossible if the TCS would be hosted by the pilot and it would be all jittery for the RIO!

(since the cross is where the sidewinder looks)

really? they are slaved to each other??

or did you mean thats where the cameras looking?

 

excellent example of teamwork there

There is a cross on the HUD where the TCS looks. I don't remember if it lines up exactly to the sidewinder cross, but it's extremely close to it, so the likelihood of it auto locking the target a sidewinder sees is higher than usual.

In AIM-9 mode the cross shows seeker's LOS.

 

@BodyOrgan: It's highly improbable to find a target automatically by an accidental TCS lock when you don't know where to look - search pattern is very small, even then RIO must control and set it that way. I still can't find your claims for TCS use in a dogfight any serious. The gimbal limit up is +11 degrees - that's pretty much firing solution (you can see the target up front) and technically useless up close, losing lock with any harder maneuver.

Agreed, it's highly improbable when you don't know where to look, but as I explained I was giving my pilot directions on where to look, and our sidewinder did find the target even when the pilot did not.

When I'm flying I have the TCS auto acquire targets all the time, because I'm looking in their general direction (because DL is telling me where they are) moving my nose around to help PAL find the contact.

The RIO also doesn't have to change any setting to have the TCS (at least in DCS) auto lock a target. I know this because my TCS auto locks targets all the time, and I pretty much only fly with Jester.

Again, I use the TCS in a dogfight before the merge or when I've gained angles such that I'm chasing. It allows me to see what the opponent is doing and make a judgement call. If you think this is useless that's fine, I respect your opinion, and I will agree to disagree with you.

That story doesn't bolster anything as this is just a weird encounter that could have gone totally different just as likely. If the pilot would have picked up the bandit visually instead of the RIO it would have been a totally different story.

 

Besides the tactical implications on who should "host the TCS", there's also a pretty plain and simple technical one: The RIO is in control of the TCS! He can slew it around using his HCU. That would be pretty much impossible if the TCS would be hosted by the pilot and it would be all jittery for the RIO!

This technical implication is probably the only valid reason I can see for having it hosted RIO side, but I also see this reason as providing the two players very little value, especially considering what they'll be losing by having it hosted RIO side, so I'm still of the opinion it should be hosted pilot side.

especially considering what they'll be losing by having it hosted RIO side, so I'm still of the opinion it should be hosted pilot side.

I guess it's exactly that then: Personal opinion, as everyone seems to have different preferences here. I have accumulated several hundred hours as a RIO in DCS now and I've always had much more use for the TCS than my pilots, as they have to stick their head out of the cockpit when WVR as I explained before. As a RIO I don't have much else to do when WVR, so I can keep an eye on the TCS much better than the pilot. So in my opinion it's much better hosted with the RIO anyways, not just because of the technical implication that comes with being able to slew the TCS.

Again, I use the TCS in a dogfight before the merge or when I've gained angles such that I'm chasing. It allows me to see what the opponent is doing and make a judgement call. If you think this is useless that's fine, I respect your opinion, and I will agree to disagree with you.

THIS!

ps the only way my tcs locks anything (with jester) is if i get a radar lock, is that what you meant?

Again, I use the TCS in a dogfight before the merge or when I've gained angles such that I'm chasing. It allows me to see what the opponent is doing and make a judgement call. If you think this is useless that's fine, I respect your opinion, and I will agree to disagree with you.

I don't think it's useless at all, but the RIO can do that as well.

Now, if we wouldn't have the latency issues, this debate wouldn't be rather pointless, as both crewmembers can watch the TCS... :music_whistling: