Even with the Spitfire, the bf-109 and the fw-190 will keep making the law in the sky - ED Forums
 


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Old 12-16-2016, 09:45 AM   #1
Theskyline35
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Lightbulb Even with the Spitfire, the bf-109 and the fw-190 will keep making the law in the sky

Hi guys,
I'm reading a book from the French Ace of the WWII, Pierre Closterman, "Le Grand Cirque", he was a pilot on Spitfire IX, V and Tempest V. (This book is amazing, if you speak French or if translated versions exist, you should take a look).


It's a super interesting book, I'm learning a lot about the different planes, about the RAF and the Luftwaffe. About the air battle in general during the WWII...etc


(Pierre Closterman in June 1945 in his Tempest V)

And one part of the book is dedicated to the Luftwaffe during the '44/'45, and it's amazing. About 15/20% of the effectives are aces, whereas the rest are young pilots unable to match the allies pilots.


But this 15% of aces are just destroying everything, flying on Fw190D9 and BF109K, just like in DCS, Pierre clearly said in the book that the P-51 are vastly inferior, and even a Spitfire XVI and his IV-B are "helpless" ("impuissant" as he said) against these new fighters. The only ones able to fight these fighters were the Tempest V and the Spit XIV.


He tells the story of 38 Fw190A8 engaging 150 P-51/P-38 after destroying 34 B-24 !! The Luftwaffe lost 12 190, the US 13 fighters... Later Konrad Bauer, German ace fought alone 7 P-51 in a Fw190D9, and killed 3 them before coming back to his base, injured.


What is the point of talking about all of that ?


Well, I get why we have a Spitfire IX, it's perfect for the Normandy map taking place in '43/'44, but what the point of fighting late model of the 109 and 190 with such fighters ? The P-51D is a joke, it's impossible to win against a good 109/190 pilot if you aren't coming right to his six and without a wingman, and the Spitfire will just be good for turning and the 2x 20mm will help a lot, but for the rest we will be out-performed easily.


Why making such good plane for the Germans, but for the allies giving them 1 to 2 years older fighters ? Oh and good luck for the future P-40...

I just want fair duels. The only way for allies to fight Luftwaffe's planes is to out number them, but in DCS there is way more people flying 109/190 than people flying the P-51 (guess why...), Maybe it will be better with the upcoming Spitfire.

I'm just sad to know that I will fly the beautiful Spitfire, but I will again, like with the P-51D, having a very very hard time doing something interesting against a good 109/190 pilot, flying a more advanced aircraft.

Sorry for grammar errors and the long post, just wanted to express my opinion, as controversial as it could be.

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Old 12-16-2016, 09:54 AM   #2
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This is one of my favourite books and I cannot recall him ever stating that about the aircraft.

I think what he actually meant was that the pilots were helpless against these aces not the aircraft.

That said I do agree that it is odd that the allies are getting the most common aircraft and the axis the rare ones...
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Old 12-16-2016, 09:55 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theskyline35 View Post
Well, I get why we have a Spitfire IX, it's perfect for the Normandy map taking place in '43/'44, but what the point of fighting late model of the 109 and 190 with such fighters ? The P-51D is a joke, it's impossible to win against a good 109/190 pilot if you aren't coming right to his six and without a wingman, and the Spitfire will just be good for turning and the 2x 20mm will help a lot, but for the rest we will be out-performed easily.


Why making such good plane for the Germans, but for the allies giving them 1 to 2 years older fighters ? Oh and good luck for the future P-40...
If thats your approach to this than I feel not even F-16 would suffice ...
P-51 is not a joke and is a capable fighter, especially against 190. K-4 is harder, indeed, but I'd not say its impossible to win against one. And of course one should have a wingmen, I mean its not a duel arena but open server so flying in organized group is the way to go

Also, I'd take any memoirs with decent grain of salt. Just because one veteran says so, doesnt mean it was that way.
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Old 12-16-2016, 10:02 AM   #4
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The translated version is called 'The Big Show'. Along with 'First Light' by Geoffrey Wellum, I'd consider both to be essential reading.
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Old 12-16-2016, 10:08 AM   #5
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Don't care about "game play balance", I want to fly historical planes. On online servers also you will rarely fly as they were flown in real life, not to mention that not everyone flying is an experienced pilot and regardless it will always be better against humans because the AI is really bad.

The way to make ww2 servers fun will be when we have a variety of things to do like escorting bombers and such.

If you think about air quake of course you will find the bf109 dominating but that's because it's arguably better.
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Old 12-16-2016, 10:11 AM   #6
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I am going to reread first light while I learn the spit. Brilliant book. I have not read the other but am halfway through Johnnie Johnson s wing leader to coincide with Bunyaps video series and skimming through 6 armies in Normandy but it's rather heavy
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Old 12-16-2016, 10:12 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krupi View Post
This is one of my favourite books and I cannot recall him ever stating that about the aircraft.

I think what he actually meant was that the pilots were helpless against these aces not the aircraft.
Not really, he talks multiple time around the 350 pages about how superior germans figthers are, but, luckly for the allies, the majority of germans pilots weren't that good because all the old pilots died and they didn't had the time to properly train new pilots.

Not sure If I can post this picture, if it's an issue tell me I will delete them, but here he talks about the situation (well, if you don't speak french good luck )




Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiromachi View Post
If thats your approach to this than I feel not even F-16 would suffice ...
P-51 is not a joke and is a capable fighter, especially against 190. K-4 is harder, indeed, but I'd not say its impossible to win against one. And of course one should have a wingmen, I mean its not a duel arena but open server so flying in organized group is the way to go

Also, I'd take any memoirs with decent grain of salt. Just because one veteran says so, doesnt mean it was that way.
Honestly there is no way a P-51 can fight a good 109 pilot, however against a 190 I agree, you can win.

Also yes it's not because one ace pilot say this that it's 100% true. But I think it's a good overview of the situation, he piloted many different RAF planes and fought a lot of germans planes.
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Old 12-16-2016, 10:24 AM   #8
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i would just wait and see how it turns out...the spit is not even there yet...might be its very well capable of representing a lethal oponent to 190s and 109s. my personal guess is, that many "109 pilots" will all of a sudden jump sides and become spit pilots, as they will not be able to cope with the better turn rate they are all of a sudden facing...

about P-51,...lets just hope it gets its appropriate boost soon...still, its not useless at all already. if the 109 makes a mistake, or is flown by a pilot who doesnt use it to its full potential, or if a experienced 109 pilot is catched with a slight energy disadvantage, the P51 is already very capable...

but yes,...i would also love to see more 109 variants, and also later models for the allies...lets just hope VEAO's spit mk xiv will be soon ready...

Last edited by 9./JG27 DavidRed; 12-16-2016 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 12-16-2016, 10:24 AM   #9
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You are wrong, even though I'm not a great, pilot I know quite a few who effectively fought 109 and won the dogfights - its hard and chances of winning are not high because 109 is simply more suited for this kind of combat, but its again not impossible. Albeit, its yet another artificial situation since one on one combat is far from realities of war.

You could find many other pilots who did so as well and they will have their own opinions. Memoirs are great for understanding the situation and how one felt about that, but any numbers and conclusions sometimes tend to be inaccurate. And its not only related to P. Closterman, its related to pretty much any pilot and any human being - our memory is not perfect
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Old 12-16-2016, 10:31 AM   #10
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"Oh and good luck for the future P-40... "
Now that will be a challenge ! It does bring a smile to my face thinking about engine management and flight characteristics I have fallen in love with it over the road so to speak !
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