Why is refueling in simulators so hard?

just saying, it's hard in DCS because of the way the plane works out (aerodynamic problems with nose port, low airspeed refuel etc)

What kind of aerodynamic problems?

You're not experiencing a sudden pitch up when opening the receptacle, are you?

In my opinion refueling the F-15 is way easier since you don't have the boom infront of your face. [...]

Haha, my experience is the exact opposite. ;)

After I got FC3, I thought I'd get the Eagle quickly fueled up since many people say AAR is easier in the F-15C, but I failed miserably. The boom took out half a wing, the left intake and the associated engine - repeatedly. I then returned to the A-10C, where - admittedly - I've trained AAR for much longer, and was delighted that I managed to take a full load of gas without disconnect (around that time, I had trained it quite often).

Just tested with A-10C in Nevada, got 4 disconnects. One I didn't quite understand, the others were 100% my fault. I guess it's like riding a bike - one doesn't quite un-learn it, but may get rusty without training.

I'm not saying it's easy, just that it's a matter of practice, which seems to mimic real life AAR pretty well in this regard. :smartass:

What kind of aerodynamic problems?

 

You're not experiencing a sudden pitch up when opening the receptacle, are you?

i am

is that not a feature? i thought it was because of the huge port opening in the nose affects the aerodynamics

have i been doing it wrong?

sure, it's trimmable but it's way more work to refuel in the A10 because of the trim requirement, taking 10-15 minutes to get in trail of the tanker etc.

perhaps it's been my fault though, some sage in this thread said A-10 refuel should be at 220 and i've been leaving it default, so maybe that's the cause of my difficulty. at 200~ the plane feels like it's stalling (which it might be, lel)

The pitch up you're experiencing isn't due to aerodynamics. It's due to the fact you're not going master arm/gun arm safe prior to joining with the tanker. Therefore you still have PAC enabled.

As soon as the refuelling door is opened PAC (and LAAP as a whole) are disabled, which will cause the same pitch up as when you normally safe the gun after having Gun/PAC armed.

In short it's a procedural error on your part.

I've heard/read many accounts from different pilots and they all stated it's a pretty challenging job. Just because it looks easy to AAR in those videos it doesn't actually mean it is easy. I'll give an example of what I mean:

In the book Tornado over the Tigris - Recollection of a Fast Jet Pilot by RAF Squadron Leader Michael Napier (Retd) he talks about his experience with AAR. He was quite an experienced pilot when he had to learn AAR in the 90s for a deployment to Iraq as part of Operation Southern Watch. He did not need AAR until that point, because he was stationed at the Cold War frontline in Germany at RAF Brüggen during the 80s where flight distances were pretty short. So when he came to Iraq he was new to AAR, although beeing an experienced pilot. In the book he describes his AARs there as very challenging and nerve wracking resulting in sweat soaked gloves. Despite that he managed to perform all his AARs pretty well which suprised himself. At one point in the book he recounted how his WSO (Weapon Systems Officer - Tornado backseater) made a comment about how well he handles the AARs which made him realise that actually no one noticed how unconfident he was about every AAR.

So, for me AAR seems pretty accurate in DCS.

One thing to think about too- in the sim there doesn't seem to be much friction or push back from the boom. I'd assume that being on the boom you could (slightly) have more stability just from the interaction between nozzle and receiver.

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Also consider that we as simmers have no formal training, or instructors identifying where we're going wrong, which really helps.

Something else I've learned from my real world flying: there's nothing quite like the knowledge that you could break an expensive plane (and yourself for that matter) if you mess up to make you focus, and that really speeds up the learning process!

When you've had enough practice, it's not that hard in DCS (or Falcon) either.

 

The trouble is that many simmers expect to practice for a few hours and be able to do like they see in YouTube videos. In fact it can take several hundred hours of formation flying and air refuelling to truly master the skills.

that

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You want the most biological reason as to why it's technically harder to midair refuel in sims than in real life?

A. You are not in a physical airplane. Meaning- Your body is very sensitive to acceleration. (You should be, otherwise you would be falling on the floor every few minutes.) And it is legitimately second nature for a human being to "correct" sudden or noticeable changes in velocity (again, otherwise you would be falling over every few minutes.) Which means that real world pilots can extend those senses to the A-10C they're flying, getting a physical FEELING of when and where their aircraft is accelerating/drifting, even when they are not looking out the cockpit, allowing a natural sixth sense that a person sitting still in his living room wouldn't have. When you pull up, even just a little bit, you feel yourself slightly heavier, sinking into your seat. When you push down, even just a little bit, you feel your stomach lift up into your throat. This translates to simply soother flying in real world vs. simulations and less difficulty flying in a straight line, i.e. not drifting upward, downward, side to side.

B. Flat screens are displaying 3D objects on a 2D flat surface. A real A10C is not flat. The real world is not flat. But that $2000 1080p HD 60" LCD is. In sims, everything on screen is a 3D representation being presented to you (and thus your brain and eyes) in 2D. This really screws with your depth perception and makes it hard for you to naturally predict distances. Even when you're close to something. 3D gaming devices like the Oculus Rift astronomically helps with this however, because it emulates 3D vision.

Addendum:

Add to the fact that because you are playing a sim on a (relatively) small screen, everything is "smaller", A tanker is what, literally the size of a small ship? Yet on your screen at the same distance, that tanker would look like the size of a football, because it's scaled down to work on a computer screen. That also screws with gaining an accurate perspective. Something filling up your entire screen is not the same thing as filling up your entire vision. Again, Oculus Rift helps in this aspect and is a reason why "Curved LCD screens" are so much better than Flat LCD screens.

A: Lastly, because of miscellaneous technical differences: Reality technically has an "input lag" as you are technically seeing something that happened one millionth of a second ago, due to the limits of the speed of light, due to the fact that it takes time for your eyes to process it, send the information via nerves to your brain, which then processes it then sends instructions to your body to react to what it's seeing. But add to that, input lag for your computer, any small lag stuttering that might distract you or confuse you on a biological/subconscious lvl, the fact that your Warthog Joystick isn't in an optimal place, (on a desk at chest level, rather than at hip level,) the fact that the real Warthog joystick is like, 3 feet long while the sim one is literally just the handle and a few inches before it reaches the baseplate, making fine control movements and adjustments more difficult to make. (You have to be even finer in your movements on the sim joystick than on the real joystick.)

That's all I got. But technically, from a biological perspective, it's slightly harder on a screen than it is in real life. Hard in real life, harder still in a sim that leaves out a few crucial sensations critical to fine flying.

^well that's true...

When you've had enough practice, it's not that hard in DCS (or Falcon) either.

 

The trouble is that many simmers expect to practice for a few hours and be able to do like they see in YouTube videos. In fact it can take several hundred hours of formation flying and air refuelling to truly master the skills.

...but this is even more true

people can adapt to handicaps, when you are deprived from some senses, you become more acute in others. with enough practice you become more attuned to what variations in acceleration look like, even if you can't feel them. the key here is actually having to push your senses harder with more demanding exercises ...like aerial refueling.

i went from not even being able to fly in formation to regularly hooking up and topping off in a week and a half. i simply made a commitment to spend an hour at the end of the boom every night. honestly, that's like no time at all but some people seem to expect instant returns because that's the fantasy they've been fed by this satisfaction-oriented society.

refueling in videogames isnt remotely difficult -- what gets these people is the thought of having to move out of their comfort zone so they start looking for excuses to cheat their way out of it.

As a long time Falcon flier, honestly, I think the DCS aar is unrealistically difficult.

F-16 would be easier since it's fly-by-wire no? Also wasn't the Falcon BMS AAR really unrealistic until 4.33?

I would think AAR is like flying helicopters in DCS. It feels impossible until you train for hours and hours and then it clicks. I'm bad at it but I don't feel the need to practice AAR since I have never needed it. If I need gas I need weapons too. I can maintain speed and heading with the tanker but I can't for the life of me maintain altitude.

Controls also play a big role. The 50 dollar toy joystick most people use is woeful for controlling a plane. I say this as a former owner of many cheap toy joysticks.

A good joystick with an extension and quality rudder pedals is worth every penny for a sim enthusiast.

This I find is even more noticeable for non experts like myself. For experienced pilots or even experienced simmers, it's much easier to do well with a shitty joystick. For someone who's learning it's even harder to learn with a shit joystick.

I base my opinion on my own experiences starting DCS with a 50$ TM all in one stick/throttle piece of junk, and switching to a TM warthog with 10cm extension and MFG crosswind pedals. For me this was a massive difference that made learning all that much easier.

i went from not even being able to fly in formation to regularly hooking up and topping off in a week and a half. i simply made a commitment to spend an hour at the end of the boom every night.

That's about how much practice it took me too. About two weeks.

Yes, good controllers working correctly (I found out the hard way my pot on the Cougar throttle was working poorly and needed to be replaced), and a LOT of practice is all you need. Took me about a month of working on it almost daily.

Many dead tankers (some accidentally, most on purpose) will attest!

Many dead tankers (some accidentally, most on purpose) will attest!

Yes, it helps break the stress and frustration to light up the tanker every so often. :gun_rifle:

Think of it this way: ply a racing simulator and try to stay in a lane. Then drive to work. In real life you can be many factors more precise.

Actually, from what I know the mission designers can only set the loitering speed of the tanker. Whatever that is, as soon as you request to refuel it slows down to about 178 knots.

 

If there actually is a variable somewhere that controls this behaviour please let me know!

The speed is set in two separate locations. Maybe your designer is changing one and not the other.

First, there is the waypoint speed. Next there is the speed you can set when you add the advanced waypoint instruction - Perform Task - Orbit. That one is a very useful way of getting a tanker to stay on station between a couple of waypoints. Make sure the speed and altitude set in there is the same as the speed and altitude set for each waypoint, and your tanker will fly predictably.

Think of it this way: ply a racing simulator and try to stay in a lane. Then drive to work. In real life you can be many factors more precise.

Driving to work one day after another session of AAR frustration, I had a realization. There I am in my car keeping right in formation with the car in front of me. Amazing! How is it I can do this driving a car? Notice your foot subconsciously tapping the gas pedal, the small steering corrections you make without even thinking. Odds are you've just got much more practice in your car. It just takes practice enough so you can anticipate the control inputs rather than react. Like riding a bicycle.

Odds are you've just got much more practice in your car. It just takes practice enough so you can anticipate the control inputs rather than react. Like riding a bicycle.

Very true. But also what WelshZeCorgi said a few posts ago^. He hit the nail bang dead center on the head. I am hopeful that the Oculus Rift will go a little ways towards making AAR somewhat easier in our simulated world vs the 2d window of our flat monitor.

Me doing AAR--> :joystick::yes::eek::badmood::pilotfly::doh::thumbup::poster_oops::censored::notworthy:

Ive just finished aar night maple flag. It wasnt pretty, but I passed (despite lightning taking out my cadc after takoff and my wingy setting my right engine on fire 300' before landing).

I found that popping around 20% speedbrake was very helpful. Made deceleration more reponsive obviously, but also seemed to reduce the affect of throttle changes on pitch. Anyone have opinions on that?

Good joystick makes a massive difference, I promise you. After getting a TM warthog it made connecting with a tanker and maintaining connection considerably easier for me. I also intend to get an extension which makes it even easier apparently. Now the Mirage atm that's hard, harder than the A-10.

I put together a simple AAR mission for use in 2.0. Nevada. Want to just hop in and practice connecting to the tanker? Airborne start. Daytime. Tanker is 1/2 nm in front of you. No wasted time trying to locate and intercept the tanker, No surprises. Just a straight forward practice mission to hone your AAR skills.

A beautiful early morning mission with the sun just rising over the Arizona sky.

The tanker is established at your A-10's optimum speed and altitude for AAR. 220 KIAS and 15,000'. On an extended 400 nm track. You will have 1 hour and 25 minutes with the tanker in straight and level flight before it turns onto its southbound leg near Fallon NV, and RTB's to Nellis AFB.

Labels are on. Includes PDF document with AAR tips and suggestions.

http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/1795805/

"I read somewhere a boom operator said the DCSW tanker crews are not as cooperative as they would be in real life."

 

HA! I'd agree with that. So many times I've sat there with the boom literally inches away shouting PLUG AHOLE!!

 

I don't have a problem with chasing the boom. My issue is I get stabilized and walk it in one of two things happens. PIO as I try to correct for being thrown up or down which is a viscous cycle OR I get thrown to one side. As a guy that regularly flies in the wake of other aircraft, I can tell you that this isn't what happens. It's bumpy but you don't just get thrown around to the point where you suddenly start gaining altitude with no stick input.

PIO is just that: pilot induced. As far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, DCS does not simulate wake turbulence in any form.

Biggest key to success is practice. Specifically, practice in that sim. I can refuel the A-10 just fine but I don't have the proficiency to refuel the Falcon in BMS or, frankly, any of the other modules in DCS.

Second is trim. Trim trim trim.

Third is making small corrections. If you find yourself getting into PIOs, just back out and try again.

Others have covered the lack of visual perception and seat of the pants feeling before so I'll only add one thing on that subject. This is a big reason why, at least on the probe/drogue side of AAR, the military doesn't typically do air refueling in simulators.

Lastly, a few 30mm rounds go a long way towards curing frustration from failed refueling attempts. :joystick:

I really dont get why people all the time tend to compare real life aspects to simulated aspect to a full degree, meaning that you only have some limitation to compare the simulation to a real life plane . bottom line is you will never have a feeling of gravity and speed in a simulated game . in real world your body feel the gravity force and all other force which in return send signals to your brain to react accordingly .

The topic creator can have the answer to his question very easily and with experiment . of course we all cant get our hand on a real jet to experience the feeling . BUT we all have cars . try to drive a car in a video game be it any racing game then go take your real car for a spin and try to do the same trick that you tried in the game . Do you feel the difference of driving in a real world . do you see the depth ? come back and tell me .

I really dont get why people all the time tend to compare real life aspects to simulated aspect to a full degree, meaning that you only have some limitation to compare the simulation to a real life plane . bottom line is you will never have a feeling of gravity and speed in a simulated game . in real world your body feel the gravity force and all other force which in return send signals to your brain to react accordingly.

I wouldn't dispute that sims as they are now are not a substitute for the real thing.

However, pilots fly using their eyes. While on the ground we miss out on feeling the forces of flight, but they don't add much in the way of cues for actually flying (with the possible exception of aerobatics).

I wouldn't dispute that sims as they are now are not a substitute for the real thing.

 

However, pilots fly using their eyes. While on the ground we miss out on feeling the forces of flight, but they don't add much in the way of cues for actually flying (with the possible exception of aerobatics).

What? Feeling the forces of flight is very important when it comes to the differences between Real World and SIM and imperative to the fine controls of flying. Yes, pilots fly with their eyes but at 30,000 ft, your visual perception doesn't change that much from so high up and it is the forces placed upon your body that helps you determine when you are drifting or in an unwanted acceleration.

I had an acquaintance that was really into Race car Sims and he had a full set up and everything. And the thing that I noticed was that I couldn't determine my speed or the rate of my acceleration just by "feel" I rarely look at my speedometer in rl but I know when I've hit the "sweet spot" of 40mph. In game, I was constantly looking at this SIM speedometer and found that I was always wrong and had trouble simply maintaining a single speed. (i.e. I couldn't maintain a speed of 100mph without drifting between 80-120 mph. Which meant that I always had to look at my speedometer before entering a turn which was a distracting thing to do every time I hit a curve.)

Edit: Your eyes are really necessary for great sweeping maneuvers, great changes where there is so much force being put upon your body that it's overloading and no longer an accurate measurement of change, so you use your eyes, but in fine, small changes, small, visually unnoticeable changes, your body can sense them, but your eyes cannot, not until those changes add up and your perception changes great enough to pick up by sight.