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MiG-21 used to be my favorite ride... can't stand it now


streakeagle

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When the MiG-21 was first released, I was absolutely amazed. I never believed the original claim made when the crowd funding started that it wouldn't go through beta development, but would be released in 100% working condition. But I didn't expect the initial release to be so close to a finished product. It seemed like all it needed to be finished was a few tweaks to the flight model, modifying the gunsight to comply with the functionality described in the flight manual, and the improving the weapons selector switch behavior. Years later, I have the impression that it is in worse shape than when it was originally released.

 

The latest patch provided some much needed improvement in the ability to see through the canopy by dramatically reducing reflections and glare, but the glass still looks like the crew chief polished the glass with a rag he used to wipe his butt.

 

I am not a ground pounder. I love flying air-to-air. The game already has some serious limitations with the ability to spot/identify/track distant visual targets due to the limitations of PC graphics, but making it even more difficult with excessively dirtied up glass is totally uncalled for. I am sure some outdoor museum MiG-21s have canopies in that bad of shape or worse, but you can go to YouTube and watch videos of ancient MiG-21s still in service with virtually spotless canopies, including the frames and mirror installation. I can't think of any other module I fly that looks worse.

 

I read the forums and see the attitude of Magnitude 3 LLC/Leatherneck is that nothing is going to change with regard to cockpit texturing/appearance as there is no time/money to spend addressing complaints in that area, consider it finished. If you don't like it, mod it yourself or download someone else's mod.

 

In the mean time, the gunsight still works the same or even worse than it did since the original release when the mechanics should be little different than the F-86 with the options for manual or radar ranging combined with the wingspan driving the radius of the diamond reticule.

 

The MiG-21 is in dramatically better shape than VEAO's Hawk, but I fly the F-86, MiG-15, F-5, F-15, Su-27, AV-8, Mirage 2000, P-51, Fw190, Bf109, Spitfire, etc. None of those have the problems that I have with the MiG-21. I don't have time/money to waste on the MiG-21 that not only never gets fixed, but actually gets worse with time.

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I personally really like the dirty canopy, but I only play in VR where the depth perception is much better, I can tell the difference between some dirt on the canopy and a possible target flying by.

But Yea I understand if you're only using a monitor it can be very difficult to spot targets. Having optional canopy's atm would be the best solution.

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Yes, I understand the changes are not from the third-party developer, but due to changes made to the DCS rendering engine.

 

I empathize with the 3rd party dev' on this, because you can spend ages fine tuning objects to look a certain way for one environment (in this case an environment that they do not have direct control over) and so it requires redoing over again when the engine is altered.

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Still they have more important and long lasting issues to fix and the canopy is not really a game breaking one. We have seen many too many artistic fixes, I believe that their priority now should be the improvement of the flight model and many systems as the gunsight..

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Actually, the cockpit is "fixed" IMHO. It's far better than it was. Of course, the other systems functionalities like gunsight and stuff could be done better. It's a nice module though and I thoroughly enjoy flying it!

 

On another note, I'm actually thankful to M3/Leatherneck for being bold enough to be the first to bring a fully-modeled REDFOR fighter to DCS. Kudos to them for that!

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I can't fly the Mig-21 in open beta 2.5.2 either, there are just too many problems with it. The landing lights are visible in the cockpit, the night lighting casts some weird shades on the inside of the windscreen, the PRMG is still not working, etc.

 

Regarding the graphics, i think the cockpit looked much better in 2.5.0, before the major overhaul. If you look at the 2 screenshots below, you can see that many fine details are lost in open beta 2.5.2. Everything, from the instruments, to the switches on the radar control panel, to the radar warning receiver and the weathering on the instruments panel looks blurred in 2.5.2.

I was told these changes have something to do with the new lighting system implemented by ED, but i have no idea if this will be fixed in the future.

 

You may want to view the images in full screen to better judge the changes from 2.5.0 to 2.5.2:

rel250.thumb.jpg.bbeedf5959a5b7389577b83237675675.jpg

ob252.thumb.jpg.c7f770b690a056fb4379d2b3ce9ad980.jpg

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Sorry but I prefer the 2nd image. The first one looks like this to me, not in an artistic way :

 

11-full.jpg

 

 

 

Anyway the current textures were designed to fit the older graphic engine. I understand why the graphic artist wants to make a V2


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Dirty canopies are a disease of flight sim games, not just the Mig-21. Get some windex and clean that thing!

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Actually in VR dirty canopies are excellent, they help increase immersion. I also like the 2nd picture better and am quite happy with the recent boost in rendering speed the balalaika got with last wednesdays patch.

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I don't mind a few specs of dirt or a few scratches, but the edges look corroded and trimmed in brown crud. Look at some online photos/videos. Operational aircraft don't look like they have been sitting in the weather neglected for 10 years. Then canopies are clean and the frames don't have a grime layer or corrosion of any kind. None of the other modules I fly reduce my ability to see to the level the MiG-21 canopy does.

 

The attached screenshot shows a couple of my issues:

1) what is all that crap around the mirror? Was water leaking and someone smeared some RTV allo over the place?

2) can you find the F-4 in the pic? There are dirt smudges that are larger and more clear than the F-4, especially toward the edges of the canopy frame.

 

I have no problem with a worn cockpit though I personally prefer little or no wear, but to fly air to air, I need to see. Overdone reflections and dirt have marred many aircraft I have flown in various sims over the years. The DCS Mig-21 has become one of them.

Screen_180615_174205.thumb.png.980b2b155381a4a54082a251b61ff864.png


Edited by streakeagle

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I don't mind a few specs of dirt or a few scratches, but the edges look corroded and trimmed in brown crud. Look at some online photos/videos. Operational aircraft don't look like they have been sitting in the weather neglected for 10 years. Then canopies are clean and the frames don't have a grime layer or corrosion of any kind.

 

I don't know how many ground crews members would be in operation if they wouldn't clean the cockpits that you can do them performing in some of the videos in Youtube, even for a old airframes. They really do swipe the HUD's / Gunsights and cockpits and the other surfaces from the objects that can detach when maneuvering and fly in pilot eye etc. They might not get everytime a vacuum cleaner to dust suck all possible dirt, but they don't leave them there either.

 

Even rust is bad for the electronics so you might not want a rusted part to be there to fracture and release some particles that gets inside electronics (or again pilot eye etc) to destroy something important.

 

1) what is all that crap around the mirror? Was water leaking and someone smeared some RTV allo over the place?

 

I think that is the normal paint used to improve seal around cockpit glasses seals in some cases. In some aircrafts you can see it is pink and in some it is black. But it just looks that some ground crews has just smudged the paint around cockpit glass with 10" brush...

 

 

But that is what I would expect today every operational Mig-21Bis to be when it is in hands of ground crew that loves to keeps it flying:

or Mig-23

 

It really much depends from the ground crew and pilot interest what level of care is spent for the aircraft in its operational conditions.


Edited by Fri13

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But that is what I would expect today every operational Mig-21Bis to be when it is in hands of ground crew that loves to keeps it flying:

or Mig-23

 

 

People should look at these videos more. This is exactly what it should be in DCS.

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rudel's already made a statement on the artistic direction for the cockpit weathering. perhaps you should come to terms with what you're given, just like real pilots do.
Most real pilots doesn't accept dirty cockpits glasses and huds that lead to their deaths....

 

Sorry, but when pilot request the clean cockpit, it gets cleaned. They even might so it by themselves before signing the aircraft.

 

There are those who just go to fly the hours to keep license up and don't care so much, but many more does operate those for real action.

 

As in the texturing and everything else in modeling and building goes, you first so the perfect model and painting, only after that you start to weather it.

 

You always have the perfect model/painting to start with and then you ruin it. Meaning you can do multiple variants between perfect and relic and simply offer those as options for choose.

 

In digital side you can always easily go back and remove effects and start from scratch, while in reality you can't why you go small steps at the time to get to the fine details until you are happy. You don't never start from fine details and destroying something as you can't go back or you just need to do all from scratch.

 

And cockpit weathering is a immersion creation, not artistic vision how crappy you can make it look and still think it would fly.

 

If I would have made the texturing to Mig-21Bis, I would still have all the different effects separated so I can apply each part as wanted or redo them without any problems. I could offer then totally clean cockpit, little used in few years, couple decade used and museum relic version in few minutes as I would have them made in the whole process when adding weathering.

 

I wouldn't have just a ugly 50 year old weathering version that has been sitting in outdoor museum for last 30 years without touch of ground crew and to fix some problems would require to redo all.

 

As if the cockpit textures are about art,I would make it important that customer gets the doesn't versions to fly and could enjoy from flying in virtually reality belonging to some believable military force and their tasks.

 

 

 

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People should look at these videos more. This is exactly what it should be in DCS.

 

+1

 

Operational aircraft don't have canopies and HUDs smeared in grease, grime and yesterday's takeout.

 

Also contrary to what Rudel mentioned the Mig at initial release did not have such awful canopies. What we purchased were relatively clean canopies. This is a relatively recent addition.

 

For such an easy fix I can't understand the difficulty. 3rd party mods which break every update is not a solution.

 

Should we expect similar for future module releases?


Edited by ///Rage

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The -23 from the video above is not quite representative example, as this particular airframe is a static museum piece, after extensive restoration finished exactly 4 years ago by the way :D. That's why it looks so mint except for some cockpit panels. More mint than in service years to be honest :D.

 

The black goo all around the edges is indeed a sealant mass. It never was applied with robot precision, though I think the amount of it on "our" mirror might be a bit excessive. Another museum bird for reference here:

http://www.muzeumlotnictwa.pl/pano_zwiedzanie/eksponaty/42/mig-21mf_gold.php?w=p

 

The fake reflections and dirt layers in various modules are a serious problem in DCS 2.5 nowadays, as the DS rendering makes them more visible than in 1.5.xx era.


Edited by Art-J

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rudel's already made a statement on the artistic direction for the cockpit weathering. perhaps you should come to terms with what you're given, just like real pilots do.

If I would be buying the MiG-21 then maybe but as an owner of the module I certainly don't have to agree and accept negative changes.

1. The cockpit glass used to be in much better shape. At least when I bought it.

2. Fore-mostly as a DCS customer I expect some standard level of quality from implementation of modules. As far the canopy and visibility is concerned all of the modules except the MiG-21 provide the same experience. If MiG-21 developers insist on impacting core game-play features such as visibility I would vote for a post or petition to bring this problem to ED attention.

 

Anyway, its not even the dirt which is the biggest problem. The crazy level of sun reflections are. Depending on the viewing and sun angle the glass looks like wet sanded with a 4000 grit paper. Just look how bit is the corona effect on first screenshot. The first two pictures - MiG-21 and F-5 taken at the same time of a day, same spot and same heading.

Screen_180616_212633.thumb.jpg.9130c05f141486987f7dd8f4c0d82ba2.jpg

Screen_180616_212730.thumb.png.5c727c27483b0186f5e4021e222d4ead.png

Screen_180616_010420.thumb.jpg.8f91f6e621f7a830b8b87053e01dfadc.jpg

Screen_180616_011158.thumb.jpg.e432aa06193257a39bda3c8b99efaae0.jpg

Screen_180616_014128.thumb.png.8d559417fd00fe43354c6652dcd25594.png


Edited by firmek

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The -23 from the video above is not quite representative example, as this particular airframe is a static museum piece, after extensive restoration finished exactly 4 years ago by the way :D. That's why it looks so mint except for some cockpit panels. More mint than in service years to be honest :D.

 

The point was that when you have the crew maintaining aircraft, even the very old cockpits gets cleaned very nicely.

 

The real challenge in the old cockpits is that they likely come with half of avionics ripped off when you buy them to museums.

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rudel's already made a statement on the artistic direction for the cockpit weathering. perhaps you should come to terms with what you're given, just like real pilots do.

 

I have come to terms with it. I no longer fly the MiG-21 with the regularity that I once did and don't plan on buying any future Magnitude 3 LLC/Leatherneck products as long as the MiG-21 remains in a state this is worse than when I originally received it.

 

I was so happy with the original MiG-21 and felt the team was cheated by the mismanagement of the original crowd funding money, that I bought a 2nd copy to make sure they actually made some money from my original purchase. But in the past year or so, it has gone into the barely flown bin with the VEAO Hawk.

 

I love the MiG-21 almost as much as the F-4. But I don't have to accept "artistic direction". I expect realism, not artistic direction, whether it is the nose wheel steering functionality or the inch of crap around the rear view mirror. I have a great MiG-21 book with tons of photos of operational aircraft, not airshow demos or hangar queens... none of them have canopies/canopy frames that look anything like this. I want to fly a MiG-21bis as it was (and still is in many air forces), not how it looks when left on a back lot by an underfunded air force or museum. I can't think of a single DCS module that took this "artistic direction"... and I have them all except for the undelivered P-40F.

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The visuals in cockpit are very important, as important as flight modeling, or even more so.

 

Flight modeling is such that unless you fly real deal, you don't know how it should perform, but of you can't do what is told to be able in basic flight maneuvers, you are going to be underdog and lose air combats because that. And when flight modeling changes too much you can start question that is it correct now or was it before.... Not a nice thing at all... Why flight modeling must be done right in first time to avoid big changes.

 

The cockpit is the office, it is the house and neighborhood, it is your title and your style... If you look bad, people don't like to sit there as the would be far more beautiful cockpits to enjoy. And that is not about how "realistic" it's by "visual arts" by weathering all out. As some details are always creating immersion, but when the artistic style comes on your way that you can't see outside nor operate the aircraft like read labels etc, or is putting aircraft purchase in vain as you can't enjoy from it.

 

Maybe ED should do a next module "DCS: ground crew" where we could maintain our virtual aircrafts... Down to point that we can't get a virtual rag to wipe and dust our cockpits to clean combat conditions...

 

Everyone knows how annoying it is to drive a car that has dirty windows from either side, but we should fly in combat with even worse visibility to out while trying to spot a enemy that is there to kill us?

 

 

 

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Candid question: is the defogger simulated ?

Canopy fogging in itself isn't modelled, which renders the defogger useless even if it would be implemented.

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  • 2 weeks later...
I can't fly the Mig-21 in open beta 2.5.2 either, there are just too many problems with it. The landing lights are visible in the cockpit, the night lighting casts some weird shades on the inside of the windscreen, the PRMG is still not working, etc.

 

Regarding the graphics, i think the cockpit looked much better in 2.5.0, before the major overhaul. If you look at the 2 screenshots below, you can see that many fine details are lost in open beta 2.5.2. Everything, from the instruments, to the switches on the radar control panel, to the radar warning receiver and the weathering on the instruments panel looks blurred in 2.5.2.

I was told these changes have something to do with the new lighting system implemented by ED, but i have no idea if this will be fixed in the future.

 

You may want to view the images in full screen to better judge the changes from 2.5.0 to 2.5.2:

 

I prefer the second image, it's way better. The Mig 21 cockpit is much better now than it was.

 

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