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deflection shooting with F-86


gavagai

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Just want to see if others have the same experience:

 

When I practice deflection shooting in the F-86, the lead computing gunsight seems consistently optimistic. I always need to have the reticle well above the target to score hits. Does the lead computing gunsight work as it should?

 

P.S. Of course I am also setting target wingspan correctly.

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How many gs are you pulling during the lead. The gunsight is radar guided but only to a certain point. Similar to the 23mm on the l39za where there is actually a g limit. I find if I'm pulling more than 3-4 gs in the fight I won't bother with even pulling the trigger. Try unloading the aircraft before firing and setting yourself up properly before hand to get the best possible really aspect shot.

 

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Try unloading the aircraft before firing and setting yourself up properly

 

I'm set up about as properly as you can get on a turning target.:book:

 

Again, all I'm asking is if others have also noticed that the reticle needs to be above the target, not on it, when deflection shooting. Thanks!

 

Hi Gav.

I've never had any luck with the gun sight in F86, its always under leading targets, even from dead level 6 shots go low, really needs fixing.

And the mech cage sight is miles off, sight is always pointing well above bullet stream.

 

Glad to know it is not just me who sees this!

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Occasionally I notice the same thing. I need to slightly adjust the pipper from ideal to get consistent hits.

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In the gunnery tutorial mission, the drone MiG flies as perfectly for tutorial purposes as possible. Wide circle, not pulling many Gs, no drastic speed changes. And yet, good luck with following instructions and trying to hit it at anything above point blank ranges. I'd say there's some room for simulation code improvement over here.

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Do you have a trk file available. There are a lot of things to prep for so maybe you left one out

 

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  • 4 months later...

Just tested with the latest NTTR. The gunsight still doesn't show enough lead. If you put the sight right on the Mig-15 you shoot underneath.

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  • 1 month later...

My group has been flying the F 86 lately and we've all noticed that the gun sight is way off. You can be in a smooth, consistent and easy turn with the piper centered nicely on the enemy aircraft and you won't hit anything. You can be dead 6 or any aspect and the result is the same with any one of us. It wasn't like this in the past. Did something change? Either way, it doesn't really work.

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Check for radar function? Check under a 2g pull? Correct wingspan in ft to account for target size to bullet drop? Sniper you can't seem to fly much of anything these days with guns eh.

 

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Can't fly much of anything with guns?

 

Yes, the radar is working and locked on the target aircraft. I'm not talking about a huge deflection shot so no, it's not close to 4 G's. Hell, even dead six nothing is hitting. There are 5 of us testing this together on the same server and none of us are getting hits with the piper on the target. I don't mean flying through the target, I mean stabilized on the target.

 

All I wanted to know is if this is happening with other, which it seems to be and when it changed.

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Not that it matters too much in this case, but to address a prior post I do not believe the manual wingspan setting is relevant when using radar to generate the range solution, and therefor isn't relevant to the OPs question. The manual wingspan setting would be required when the radar is off or inoperative and the twist function of the throttle is being used to feed range to the gunsight.

 

To quote page 4-32 of USAF TO 1F-86F-1 with regards to preparing the F86 for aerial gunnery with the A4 gunsight and when using radar ranging

 

"10. Set wing span adjustment to wing span of target airplane, so that manual ranging can be set up in a minimum of time should radar ranging fail."

 

This statement is further collaborated by page 28 of the Belsimtek F86 quick start which says, "the wingspan is set primarily as a precaution in case the ranging radar failed during combat."

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But what I'm saying is if you start pulling a 3g turn and rotate the dial you should see it start to walk up the imaginary gun snake as wingspan increases and down the snake as the wingspan increases. Similar the the 190s sight. If all else fails and it's still not working for you guys I'd suggest setting the wingspan in the middle and learn to use a static sight.

 

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Hi Gav,

 

You are right, me too I have to aim well ahead of the target, even though it's stationary on my reticle, so I'm turning with him and it's not a snapshot. The more G-s you pull, the farther ahead you need to aim, despite the radar computing sight..Actually even at low G loads I need to aim quite a bit above the target. Not fun, considering how little ammo you have, and how interesting the MIG's DM is.

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Elmo,

 

Are you talking about the wingspan lever on the sight moving the pipper up and down the gun snake (or funnel) or the throttle twist? Because if you are saying adjusting the wingspan dial on the gunsight moves the pipper when using radar ranging, I don't think that is how the sight is supposed to operate.

 

When used air to air, the A4 sight is compensating for 2 factors to provide a gunnery solution as far as I understand it- G (or deflection) and range. Deflection information is provided by measuring gyroscopic precession within the sight and range is provided by the radar . Assuming your previous example of flying a constant 3G turn, if the pipper did move up and down the gun funnel when the wingspan lever is moved, that would imply that an adjustment for range was being made- which would not be correct. Range data is supplied to the gunsight by the radar, assuming the radar is operational and the throttle twist is full counterclockwise (its spring loaded, default position). The wingspan lever should have zero effect on the range sensed by the radar, and therefor in a constant g turn should have no effect on the position of the pipper. Basically, if the sight knows how hard you are pulling and how far away the target is, it has everything it needs. Why would the target's wingspan matter?

 

This is collaborated further in USAF TO 1F-86F-1 on page 4-24 which states "Positioning the wingspan adjustment lever wheel or knob inserts target size data into the sight when using MANUAL ranging control, varying the reticle image circle diameter in proportion to target size." (My emphasis on manual). When radar range data is not available the throttle twist control can then be used to frame the target in the circle of diamonds to generate a range for the gunsight, which when coupled with the sight's gyroscopic reading for deflection, a solution can be generated and displayed.

 

To test this, I went out in free flight and established a constant 3G pull. I then moved my viewpoint so as to hold the pipper exactly at the bottom of the sight glass and spun the wingspan lever- the pipper stayed right at the bottom of the gunsight glass. I then loaded myself up in trail behind a non maneuvering target and achieved a range indication from the radar. Holding the aircraft steady and moving the wingspan lever, no movement of the pipper could be seen. Finally, I set the wingspan lever and moved the throttle twist. This DID move the pipper up and down, as it should do if you were using manual ranging.

 

If I am missing something here I would welcome an explanation, because I can find no documentation to explain why the wingspan setting would have any effect on the pipper position when using radar ranging.

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I usually set my radar range to a 1/4 of its full value where then I'm assuming that there is a more accurate level of ranging information. Other than that yes I am adusting the wingspan knob. However this is usually against larger targets. When merged with migs I don't even bother and lock the sight as I am more accurate with a fixed gunsight.

 

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Right on, I am definitely not trying to argue with anyone's technique or talk anyone out of what works for them. But are you saying that you can say definitively that moving the wingspan knob is moving your pipper when you are radar ranging? Can anyone else collaborate this? It certainly doesn't move mine (1.5.5, latest build).

 

Because based on the points I laid out in the post above, I believe that if the wingspan knob is moving the pipper that would be incorrect behavior of the sight and could perhaps explain why people are having problems with it.

 

On a related note, while reading the USAF TO for the sight I ran into a discussion of the target speed switch located on the pedestal by the gunsight selector switch. Apparently it puts in a lead adjustment for aerial gunnery. "LO" setting when the speed of the attacking aircraft is greater than the target, "HI" setting for aircraft near the same speed, and "TR" for drogue training at low speed. I had never used this switch, but moving it from hi to lo does move the pipper, so this is a feature that might need some exploration.

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Oh you didn't mention the target speed switch. Yeah a2g set to hi a2a set low

 

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Oh you didn't mention the target speed switch. Yeah a2g set to hi a2a set low

 

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Source for this? Because it contradicts the USAF aircraft manual. Also the USAF aircraft manual and the Belsimtek quick start guide say to strafe with a mechanically caged sight. And when the sight is mechanically caged the LO/HI switch has zero effect on its depression.

 

Sorry to have so hijacked your question here BSS_Sniper. I too think that the gunsight isn't providing enough deflection and I thought that a discussion to ensure we are using proper procedures would be useful (it has always seemed to me the mods and devs are more likely to look at something if you can back it up with evidence that the aircraft or component thereof isn't behaving in accordance with real world documentation) but this is just turning into conjecture and I will back away before this gets any more off the rails. I'm not trying to be a jerk but I don't think the devs will look at gunsight issues if the gunsight isn't being used as designed (and not to say that you aren't, BSS). Safe flying and hopefully this gets a look or someone has an insight for a solution.

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Tom, I agree with your assessment of how the gunsight works, it is how I interpret TO 1F-86F-1 as well. I think that the sight is working as expected in RADAR ranging mode, not sure about manual. If it is moving the reticle when changing the manual wingspan when RADAR is tracking a target there might be a problem.

 

I think the problem with inadequate lead might be related to the ammunition and not the sight. Specifically, I think the muzzle velocity may be too low, or the muzzle position is incorrect. To test my hypothesis I parked on the threshold and fired the middle set of guns down the runway which had veh parked at 50 yd intervals along the side of the runway and in exterior view noted where the rounds fell.

 

I would be interested in knowing what other people found when trying this test. I did the math and determined where the rounds should land and they were short.

 

The low muzzle velocity compounded by a lack of trg and practice with the sight is leading to the perception that the sight is faulty and you need to lead the target.

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Source for this? Because it contradicts the USAF aircraft manual. Also the USAF aircraft manual and the Belsimtek quick start guide say to strafe with a mechanically caged sight. And when the sight is mechanically caged the LO/HI switch has zero effect on its depression.

 

Sorry to have so hijacked your question here BSS_Sniper. I too think that the gunsight isn't providing enough deflection and I thought that a discussion to ensure we are using proper procedures would be useful (it has always seemed to me the mods and devs are more likely to look at something if you can back it up with evidence that the aircraft or component thereof isn't behaving in accordance with real world documentation) but this is just turning into conjecture and I will back away before this gets any more off the rails. I'm not trying to be a jerk but I don't think the devs will look at gunsight issues if the gunsight isn't being used as designed (and not to say that you aren't, BSS). Safe flying and hopefully this gets a look or someone has an insight for a solution.

No source just simply using it that way seems to yield me better results. As for the mec cage. I tend to use it caged for a2a. Unguided rockets and guns a2g same. For bombs however I'll uncage the sight to make use of the auto release.

 

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Thanks Rob- I agree that the gunsight is behaving functionally (ie it is reacting appropriately to changes in flight path and range) as it should in radar mode, as I have yet to see any evidence to the contrary on my machine or from anyone else. I agree completely if the pipper were to move when an adjustment was made to the wingspan knob in radar mode that would indicate a problem, but I have seen no evidence that is happening.

 

Your idea about the slugs' velocity or the gun alignment (I am picturing an incorrect boresight type of situation) would make perfect sense. College physics was a long time ago for me so I wouldn't venture into trying to do any of my own math but if you had a set of parameters in mind (removing as many variables as possible and all that) for test firing I would be willing to set something up quick and get back to you with my results.

 

And although I get the gist of how you could work backwards to a muzzle velocity from the rounds' impacts on the ground, I am a little unsure of how you would isolate or measure the firing angle. Wouldn't the angle of the bore in relation to the ground be of paramount importance here?

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Your idea about the slugs' velocity or the gun alignment (I am picturing an incorrect boresight type of situation) would make perfect sense. College physics was a long time ago for me so I wouldn't venture into trying to do any of my own math but if you had a set of parameters in mind (removing as many variables as possible and all that) for test firing I would be willing to set something up quick and get back to you with my results.

 

And although I get the gist of how you could work backwards to a muzzle velocity from the rounds' impacts on the ground, I am a little unsure of how you would isolate or measure the firing angle. Wouldn't the angle of the bore in relation to the ground be of paramount importance here?

 

A working knowledge of Physics is a bonus, High School Calculus is, however a requirement.

 

So TO 1F-86F-1 states that the Boresight angle should be 0 degrees, the specifications state that it could be elevated or depressed for harmonization up to 1/4 degree. I have checked the F86.lua file and it appears to be set to 0 degrees. I assume that is from the fuselage reference line.

 

To level the aircraft, T.O. 1F-86F-2 para 1-6 has it raised on jack stands so all wheels are 2" above ground. I assume that the primary reason for this is to take the tire out of the equation. This we can not do in DCS, or at least I can think of no way to do it but I feel that the fuselage reference line must be fairly close to horizontal and the error introduced would not be significant for this test which is only to determine that there is or is not an error, not the precise magnitude of the error.

 

T.O. 1F-86F-2 includes information on gun harmonization in Sect IX including FIGURE 9-4 with the various relative dimensions and 9-5 with a graph that indicated bullet drop.

 

The Sabre was armed with the M20 API-T and M8 API ammunition, both with an Initial Velocity of 2910 fps. I have verified that this is the ammo listed in the F86.lua file.

 

The height of the middle pair of guns is ~6' above ground with the landing gear extended.

 

The formulas for calculating the bullet trajectory can be found in AAF Manual 200-1 Fighter Gun Harmonization

 

Section F has a table for the older M2 ammunition with an Initial Velocity of 2700 fps which is close. The table indicates about 520 yds to drop 72"

 

To test, in mission editor place Sabre on threshold of runway at Batumi or other coastal airfield near Sea Level, measure using the measuring tool in the editor every 100 yds in front of the Saber and place an object along the side of the runway to mark that spot. Set the weather to a Standard Day, no wind, no turbulence.

 

From an outside view (F2) fire the guns and observe the mean area of impact. I will bet it will be closer to the a/c than expected.

 

let me know your observations and any hypothesis to explain the variance from your expected result.

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