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deflection shooting with F-86


gavagai

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  • 1 year later...

I personally have made many of the mod adjustments that are being talked about right here including velocity and yes it is in the weapons lua file.

 

If anyone wants any of these mods for testing or just for fun just let me know and I can post them up.

 

 

The Mods I have are:

1) Remove the heating warp from the .50 cals

2) Very high Velocity .50 cals

3) Corrected gun elevation so the rounds pass through the piper and not under it.

4) 20mm cannons for the saber (standard velocity)

5) 20mm cannons for saber (High velocity)

 

Having said that one thing that I have noticed about the gunsight in the F-86F in DCS is that the rounds don't actually pass through the piper when fired, even in level flight. If you fire the rounds you will see that the tracer rounds pass under the center dot as opposed to through it. When I adjust this via the lua file so that the guns pass through the piper the radar gunsight becomes accurate. If I do not mod it and place the radar piper on the enemy and hold it there for a few seconds the rounds always fall just behind the enemy. This is frustrating because you are just adjusting the elevation of the guns but of course this kind of mod is forbidden in DCS and Belsimtek is never going to change it.

 

The other thing to note is that the guns in the F-86F in DCS degrade from heat WAY faster then any other guns found in DCS. So, even after you fire a couple of very short bursts the rounds will start to shotgun like crazy and loose velocity until the point that they won't even fly far enough out not to fall under your own saber as you fly over the rounds you fired. I've modded the guns to use all tracers and see what the rounds do after even a couple of small bursts is crazy. You can be with in a couple hundred feet (Not Meters) of a Mig-15 and the rounds won't hit even the the enemy plane is not even maneuvering. So...shots that you take at the beginning of your fight that will hit the enemy will not hit them later on in the fight as the guns degrade. It can be frustrating because I've seen plenty of F-86 gun camera footage the shows bursts of gun fire up to 4-5 seconds long. Personally I don't fire this long at all myself however, it is of note that you can't even if you wanted to. After a single 4 second burst in this saber your guns will be useless. The guns warp so bad that I won't even re-arm my same Saber. I take a new one every time. I have gone on flights and downed 2-3 Migs and then after RTB, Landing, re-arming and refueling then taking off and engaging an enemy and my freshly loaded guns fire rounds right past a non-maneuvering Mig sitting right in front of me. I take a new plane and BAM, rounds start hitting.

 

I have one question if anyone has a good answer for this. The TR on the drop speed for the gunsight next to HI & LO is not talked about and does not exist on the manual from Belsimtek. I read that it stands for "training" but that is all I have been able to find. So, what exactly does the "training" setting do and when and why would you use it?


Edited by Alphazulu
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What velocity did you use for the guns in your mod?

 

When you say you corrected the gun elevation did you change the gun muzz location or did you angle the gun upward? How much to have the desired effect?

 

Also did you try my experiment above? I am interested as I am interested in taking the gun sight out of the equation as part of the error. I can determine the height above and below the fuselage reference line in the Lua file but not the gun sight, nor how far above the ground when parked the fuselage reference line is and this may be part of the overall error.

 

The RCAF was renowned for its gunnery in Europe in the fifties and used a different procedure than the T.O. mentioned above. They used a 1000' range for the process. The target was a six foot by ten (?) foot screen and the a/c was parked on a level pad with wheels chocked. If I try this in game the rounds only reach the target after richocheting. Clearly the rounds would be expected to hit the target somewhere in the middle in reality so the rounds could reasonably be expected to travel 1600-1800' easily before first graze.

 

The other factor I noticed was the gun sight is aiming at the ground about 500-600' in front of the a/c when caged. This combined with the guns firing low would really compound the aiming calculation the pilot needs to do.

 

I have intending to test the sight in manual ranging mode in the same test as above.

 

Another interesting experiment would be to fly level while inverted and observe the modeled bullet drop against the gun sight caged. For another day...

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I personally have made many of the mod adjustments that are being talked about right here including velocity and yes it is in the weapons lua file.

 

If anyone wants any of these mods for testing or just for fun just let me know and I can post them up.

 

 

The Mods I have are:

1) Remove the heating warp from the .50 cals

2) Very high Velocity .50 cals

3) Corrected gun elevation so the rounds pass through the piper and not under it.

4) 20mm cannons for the saber (standard velocity)

5) 20mm cannons for saber (High velocity)

 

I have been trying to mod myself up a GunVal Sabre for a looooong time! Were you able to get the F2's guns to work without the sounds getting glitched out? Possibly even able to get it to work with the M39 sounds?

Win10 Pro | i7 7920hq | ASUS ROG Strix RTX2080 | Thrustmaster FCS (Thanks Dojo & The 476th Podcast!)

 

I'm a low flyer :helpsmilie:

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The P-51D's K-14 works extremely well for me. The F-86, not nearly so well. I would like to understand why the newer gunsight does not perform as well as the older one. Is the P-51 gunsight overmodeled in its accuracy? Or is the F-86 gunsight programmed incorrectly? I don't care whether it is due to the rounds being modeled wrong, the gunsight being modeled wrong, or the guns being boresighted incorrectly. I would simply love it if the F-86 gunsight behaved as well as the K-14 with the added bonus of radar ranging.

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I made the mods some time ago so I don't recall all of the info at the moment but I believe I changed the bl.elevation_initial in the F-86.lua to 0.2 to get the rounds to pass directly through the piper. No, I didn't run any of those test you suggested I'm a professional IT person so the coding is no big deal for me but I'm not that adept at math. I will have to get back to you about the velocity I set, but setting it to whatever you like is very easy. I think I actually have 3 different ones, the default, one that is a bit faster and one that is like a rail gun just for fun.

 

 

Concerning the other guys question about what info was used to mod the guns, I basically used the M39s that already exist in the game for the 20mm cannon mod. The later Sabers that did have some 20mm cannons used the early version of the M39, so I figured I would just use that. So with the mod the saber is basically just re-armed with M-39 cannons.

 

 

Pilot Ryan,

Yes, it works with the M39 cannons and the sound. The sound is very easy, in fact I still use a sound mod for the saber's guns even when I'm using the default 50s online so it sounds like I'm actually firing real guns and not setting off a row of black cat firecrackers.

 

 

Personally knowing how a lot of IT professionals address reported bugs with fixes, I have often wondered if this is what happened. So, when Belsimtek first released the F-86 everything about the M3 guns were modeled as M2 guns as a mistake. This mistake was quickly noticed by the community reported the only way they could visibly see the mistake, as the guns firing with a very to low ROF for M3s machine guns. The guns were orginaly set to 800 rounds a minute like the M2 guns in DCS. If the "fix" was implemented by simply increasing the ROF then the guns would just act like M2s firing at an M3 rate of 1200 rounds and minute and burn out the guns super fast. Some guys in WW2 tried different tricks on there M2s to increase the ROF but as expected it would just burn the guns out super fast. So, I wonder if this is the case with the M3s in the F-86.....


Edited by Alphazulu
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I have been trying to mod myself up a GunVal Sabre for a looooong time! Were you able to get the F2's guns to work without the sounds getting glitched out? Possibly even able to get it to work with the M39 sounds?

 

 

Yes, I have a mod that uses the M39 and the M39 sound for the Saber. The other mod for cannons that I made before the F5 was in DCS uses the MG 151/20 from the FW-190 with the rounds modified to match the ROF and velocity of the early M39 cannons in real life. That mod uses a cannon sound that I got online. Both work really well.

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Yes, I have a mod that uses the M39 and the M39 sound for the Saber. The other mod for cannons that I made before the F5 was in DCS uses the MG 151/20 from the FW-190 with the rounds modified to match the ROF and velocity of the early M39 cannons in real life. That mod uses a cannon sound that I got online. Both work really well.

 

Sounds great . Is your mod available for download?

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy and I've had both.

 

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Sounds great . Is your mod available for download?

 

 

 

 

I don't usually post my Mods up for download but I will when someone asks for it. I will post it on the user files downloads on EDs website and drop a link here when it is done.

I should be able to get to it this weekend.


Edited by Alphazulu
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  • 5 weeks later...

May I request a little mod help here in this thread? I want to know if I can edit some lua's with notepad++ without building a whole mod and using a manager for what seems like total overkill. I want to start small if at all possible. Offline use only and fair use. I don't want to get in any trouble. Where do I need to put the files and how can I load them without preventing them from appearing in game. I did some skinning in LOMAC but that's it.

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It's perfectly ordinary banter Squiffy, "Bally Jerry, pranged his kite, right in the 'how's your father.'" - Monty Python, RAF Banter Sketch.

Squiffy, a. slang. 1. Intoxicated; drunk. 2. Askew, skew-whiff. - OED

 

"Put that sucker in a 4G turn and keep it there!!" - Maj. Gen. "Boots" Blesse

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  • 2 weeks later...
May I request a little mod help here in this thread? I want to know if I can edit some lua's with notepad++ without building a whole mod and using a manager for what seems like total overkill. I want to start small if at all possible. Offline use only and fair use. I don't want to get in any trouble. Where do I need to put the files and how can I load them without preventing them from appearing in game. I did some skinning in LOMAC but that's it.

 

 

Yes, you can edit lua files directly in Notepad++ and that is what I would use at DCS does not seem to like Notepad at all. You can make perfectly good changes to a lua with Notepad and the game will not work but if you make the same changes with Notepad++ it works fine.

 

I'm trying to provide help but I'm not entirely sure what you mean by some of these questions. Editing a lua file is a mod, once you have edited the lua file you have made a mod. What "manager" are you referring to?

 

"Offline use only and fair use. I don't want to get in any trouble."

 

Dude, you own your own version of this game and you can mod what you want. If DCS does not like it, it will not pass integrity check, but you cannot get it trouble for it.

 

"Where do I need to put the files"

 

Where you need to put the file depends on the original location of the file that you mod. If you don't use JSGME then you need to put the modded file in the exact same location as the original. If you Mod the "F-86.lua" that is in DCS World/CoreMods/Aircraft/F-86, then you need to put your modded F-86.lua in that same location. You can re-name the original "F-86-Orginal.lua" and your modded file the correct name of "F-86.lua". If you do it this way, keep backups of your mods, when you update the game it will overwrite your modded F-86.lua with an original copy of that lua.

 

"how can I load them without preventing them from appearing in game."

 

I really don't understand this one at all???

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Thanks AZ! ;)

The editor I was referring to must be JSGME or the old ModMan. "Where to put the files" was about the newer windows file structures with app data, users and all that. Like where the screenies appear. Putting .lua's where you found them makes perfect sense to me so I think you answered my questions. "How to load the files" was the same as the first+notepad fail. Yeah, I bought my copy and the integrity check will take care of the rest so no worries there.

Thanks again.


Edited by Squiffy

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It's perfectly ordinary banter Squiffy, "Bally Jerry, pranged his kite, right in the 'how's your father.'" - Monty Python, RAF Banter Sketch.

Squiffy, a. slang. 1. Intoxicated; drunk. 2. Askew, skew-whiff. - OED

 

"Put that sucker in a 4G turn and keep it there!!" - Maj. Gen. "Boots" Blesse

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iirc it's how the LF command for "line feed" is handled.

 

 

You can use Wordpad if you havent got Notepad++ at hand, Wordpad handles it correctly.

 

 

For Linux, this is an ancient topic, never open files with Notepad from Windows, goodbye Samba..haha

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Thanks AZ! ;)

The editor I was referring to must be JSGME or the old ModMan. "Where to put the files" was about the newer windows file structures with app data, users and all that. Like where the screenies appear. Putting .lua's where you found them makes perfect sense to me so I think you answered my questions. "How to load the files" was the same as the first+notepad fail. Yeah, I bought my copy and the integrity check will take care of the rest so no worries there.

Thanks again.

 

 

 

 

No problem, glad to help. If you have any other mod questions just PM me, so my email will tell me you messaged me. I only look at ED forums every now and then. Also, if you want a little more detail on how file replacement programs like JSGME work I detailed some of it here in another post.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=190138&page=3

 

 

If you do start modding I highly recommend using one of these file replacement programs like JSGME. If not managing your Mods and your DCS directory can get very complicated and confusing. Plus it allows you to turn off all mods with one click to make sure a mod is not messing up your current version of DCS when troubleshooting any issues.


Edited by Alphazulu
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  • 3 months later...

AZ, I can't seem to post PMs now. I wanted to take a look at the muzzle velocity for the M3_Browning .50 cal. Is there any way to do it? I can't find it. I am starting to wonder if it is piggy backed off the the .303 which would explain a lot. And it would be the .50 shells. Hey maybe in vehicles? I did not see it in the WWII weapons but maybe it's in the stock vehicles? Fire rates in guns, muzzle velocities in shells?


Edited by Squiffy

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

It's perfectly ordinary banter Squiffy, "Bally Jerry, pranged his kite, right in the 'how's your father.'" - Monty Python, RAF Banter Sketch.

Squiffy, a. slang. 1. Intoxicated; drunk. 2. Askew, skew-whiff. - OED

 

"Put that sucker in a 4G turn and keep it there!!" - Maj. Gen. "Boots" Blesse

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Me likey. Especially the ricochet. :D

1246072318_F-86Sabrenighttracers.jpg.fb2e421c13a035543f5ee006e0fc9f0d.jpg

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

It's perfectly ordinary banter Squiffy, "Bally Jerry, pranged his kite, right in the 'how's your father.'" - Monty Python, RAF Banter Sketch.

Squiffy, a. slang. 1. Intoxicated; drunk. 2. Askew, skew-whiff. - OED

 

"Put that sucker in a 4G turn and keep it there!!" - Maj. Gen. "Boots" Blesse

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Thanks again to AZ for the PMs. I sent 2 more but they don't appear to have gone through. I am modifying the muzzle velocity of the *shells = {"M2_50_aero_AP","M20_50_aero_APIT"} to have 890m/s muzzle velocity and 2000 to 2500m max range. I cut down the barrel warp effect function in the F-86.lua to cope with the overloaded M2 firing rate. Now to test.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

It's perfectly ordinary banter Squiffy, "Bally Jerry, pranged his kite, right in the 'how's your father.'" - Monty Python, RAF Banter Sketch.

Squiffy, a. slang. 1. Intoxicated; drunk. 2. Askew, skew-whiff. - OED

 

"Put that sucker in a 4G turn and keep it there!!" - Maj. Gen. "Boots" Blesse

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It's working pretty well. I almost think the AI MiG pilots have discovered this and are ramming me on purpose ;) 890 m/s Muzzle velocity on the M2 shells is pretty nice.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

It's perfectly ordinary banter Squiffy, "Bally Jerry, pranged his kite, right in the 'how's your father.'" - Monty Python, RAF Banter Sketch.

Squiffy, a. slang. 1. Intoxicated; drunk. 2. Askew, skew-whiff. - OED

 

"Put that sucker in a 4G turn and keep it there!!" - Maj. Gen. "Boots" Blesse

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It's even better. Increasing shell lifetime to 9 helps too. Anywhere from 870 to 910 m/s looks very realistic from the cockpit. More than that is kinda crazy. Barrel warp to a minimum. I got more pilots kills too before the planes broke up.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

It's perfectly ordinary banter Squiffy, "Bally Jerry, pranged his kite, right in the 'how's your father.'" - Monty Python, RAF Banter Sketch.

Squiffy, a. slang. 1. Intoxicated; drunk. 2. Askew, skew-whiff. - OED

 

"Put that sucker in a 4G turn and keep it there!!" - Maj. Gen. "Boots" Blesse

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Yes, you can edit lua files directly in Notepad++ and that is what I would use at DCS does not seem to like Notepad at all. You can make perfectly good changes to a lua with Notepad and the game will not work but if you make the same changes with Notepad++ it works fine.

 

I'm trying to provide help but I'm not entirely sure what you mean by some of these questions. Editing a lua file is a mod, once you have edited the lua file you have made a mod. What "manager" are you referring to?

 

"Offline use only and fair use. I don't want to get in any trouble."

 

Dude, you own your own version of this game and you can mod what you want. If DCS does not like it, it will not pass integrity check, but you cannot get it trouble for it.

 

"Where do I need to put the files"

 

Where you need to put the file depends on the original location of the file that you mod. If you don't use JSGME then you need to put the modded file in the exact same location as the original. If you Mod the "F-86.lua" that is in DCS World/CoreMods/Aircraft/F-86, then you need to put your modded F-86.lua in that same location. You can re-name the original "F-86-Orginal.lua" and your modded file the correct name of "F-86.lua". If you do it this way, keep backups of your mods, when you update the game it will overwrite your modded F-86.lua with an original copy of that lua.

 

"how can I load them without preventing them from appearing in game."

 

I really don't understand this one at all???

 

 

CLF is what makes the trouble, Notepad++ does it right, so does Wordpad, just do NOT use Texteditor for ANY ANY kind of editing config files, for sure not in Linux.

 

CLF is the line end command that gets messed up, just FYI.

Gigabyte Aorus X570S Master - Ryzen 5900X - Gskill 64GB 3200/CL14@3600/CL14 - Asus 1080ti EK-waterblock - 4x Samsung 980Pro 1TB - 1x Samsung 870 Evo 1TB - 1x SanDisc 120GB SSD - Heatkiller IV - MoRa3-360LT@9x120mm Noctua F12 - Corsair AXi-1200 - TiR5-Pro - Warthog Hotas - Saitek Combat Pedals - Asus PG278Q 27" QHD Gsync 144Hz - Corsair K70 RGB Pro - Win11 Pro/Linux - Phanteks Evolv-X 

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