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IFF rules NCTR


vincentb

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Does anyone know what the hostile/friendy/unkown logic is based on NCTR in the hornet? I understand that mode 4 and datalink can provide this conclusively but how can NCTR? How does it classify a Mig29 from a neutral country (mode 4 negative)? Or an F16 from a hostile country? Is this logic dynamic (e.g. data cartridge based on the local air forces in the region) or fixed (aircraft type)? Does this really happen without a pilot's decision? And can the pilot overrule the classification?

 

Thanks!

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Hello!

 

First of all, you are mixing two entirely different systems. IFF essentially tells you if the contact is friendly or not (unknown). NCTR will show you the Type, i.e., Fighter, Bomber, Transport, and if there's more time to evaluate, the exact aircraft type, like MiG-29 - on the other hand, it cannot tell you the allegiance of the contact.

 

In the real world, there's something called Commit Criteria. It tells you how to classify the contact based on, for example, the Country of Origin, speed, altitude, and many other things. When you put them into the equation, the result would say if you are supposed to engage that particular contact or not. If in doubt, ask the AWACS or GCI for declaration. Pilots do not decide this; it's always up to the C2 (Command and Contol) authority.

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Thanks for the replies guys, but this video is exactly where my problem lies:

 

Wags NCTRs a Mig29 then subsequently interrogates mode 4 and the contact is immediately classified as a hostile in the HUD and LTWS. He mentions at minute 3:10-3:23 with it: "For hostile you'll need a mode 4 identification along with NCTR". As far as I understand, the mode 4 interrogation only helps determining whether it is friendly or unknown, and doesn't classify as hostile without NCTR. My question is: what is the NCTR logic to explain the switch from unknown to hostile (red triangle on LTWS and diamond in HUD) following his mode 4 interrogation at min 2:29?

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Without getting too complicated:

 

NCTR, based on database, determines what aircraft your radar sees. You can look up the specifics on how NCTR works if you like.

 

So for a hostile contact you have multiple "sensors" to determine if the bogey is hostile. This varies based on ROE in real life and I won't get into those specifics. In game you need to have more than IFF for a bogey to be hostile.

 

It can be an AWACs, other fighters, etc... Think of it like two-factor authorization when accessing a website, game, server etc...

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Thanks for the replies guys, but this video is exactly where my problem lies:

 

Wags NCTRs a Mig29 then subsequently interrogates mode 4 and the contact is immediately classified as a hostile in the HUD and LTWS. He mentions at minute 3:10-3:23 with it: "For hostile you'll need a mode 4 identification along with NCTR". As far as I understand, the mode 4 interrogation only helps determining whether it is friendly or unknown, and doesn't classify as hostile without NCTR. My question is: what is the NCTR logic to explain the switch from unknown to hostile (red triangle on LTWS and diamond in HUD) following his mode 4 interrogation at min 2:29?

 

Also, IRL the hornet has a ROE/IFF PROG page. This can be set up with the required ID Tree , hostile criteria etc. This would include which aircraft types (NCTR returns) are to be considered hostile in a particular operation/theatre.

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NCTR simply identifies the type of aircraft. Whether or not that type is used to determine whether the contact is hostile or not, along with IFF etc, is based on mission-specific criteria that are programed into the system.

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If western countries fly an operation together, they load encrypted keys into their IFF transponders.

These will be transmitted with an interrogation, for example mode 4.

 

If things are right, magic is happening and the IFF systems are talking to each other.

 

I assume NCTR is somewhere in that loop as well, I don't know this system.

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Guys, he knows what NCTR is, his question was why is the MiG-29 type contact classified automatically as hostile instead of unknown which is the actual result of IFF interrogation.

 

I guess AvroLanc gave the correct answer and it was a matter of the IFF configuration that Wags used.

 

Also, IRL the hornet has a ROE/IFF PROG page. This can be set up with the required ID Tree , hostile criteria etc. This would include which aircraft types (NCTR returns) are to be considered hostile in a particular operation/theatre.

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Also, IRL the hornet has a ROE/IFF PROG page. This can be set up with the required ID Tree , hostile criteria etc. This would include which aircraft types (NCTR returns) are to be considered hostile in a particular operation/theatre.

 

So IRL, the NCTR check with ROE/IFF PROG is done by software (automated) or by the pilot manually checking the NCTR aircraft type with ROE?

 

I understand that in DCS FA-18C, NCTR is at the moment completely independent of Mode 4 IFF. It just gives you aircraft type and does not influence HAFU symbol.

 

Thks!

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So IRL, the NCTR check with ROE/IFF PROG is done by software (automated) or by the pilot manually checking the NCTR aircraft type with ROE?

 

I understand that in DCS FA-18C, NCTR is at the moment completely independent of Mode 4 IFF. It just gives you aircraft type and does not influence HAFU symbol.

 

Thks!

 

IRL NCTR depends on the aircraft type you’re flying and software. I guess. Older types when NCTR was first introduced would just print a readout of returned aircraft type based on its calculation. The pilot would then need to correlate that with lack of IFF and outside sources to generate an ID.

 

Newer systems allow the the process can be automated, with the pre set ID matrix matching up a NCTR return to a hostile aircraft in its database. Link 16 will play onto this as well.

 

No, in DCS NCTR still does influence ID. You need both a lack of IFF M4 and a NCTR ‘hostile ‘ type match to give a hostile HAFU symbol. We can assume that the DCS ROE PROG page has been set up to show any aircraft from the opposing side as hostile. Maybe one day ED will allow us to edit our own ID matrix.

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No, in DCS NCTR still does influence ID. You need both a lack of IFF M4 and a NCTR ‘hostile ‘ type match to give a hostile HAFU symbol. We can assume that the DCS ROE PROG page has been set up to show any aircraft from the opposing side as hostile. Maybe one day ED will allow us to edit our own ID matrix.

 

Oh I see. Thanks!

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Guys, he knows what NCTR is, his question was why is the MiG-29 type contact classified automatically as hostile instead of unknown which is the actual result of IFF interrogation.

 

I guess AvroLanc gave the correct answer and it was a matter of the IFF configuration that Wags used.

 

Great, thanks AvroLanc and Dudikoff! Indeed, that was the answer to my question. It makes sense that it's a dynamic rule set which can be changed based on the local theatre situation. For example, in Syria with the Syrian AF, Russian AF, and coalition AFs flying around, you may want to prevent classifying Russian SU35s as hostile to prevent an accidental international incident. Or in a hypothetical conflict with Iraq you may encounter Iraqi F16s but in the north you may run into Turkish F16s.

 

I reckon that deconflicting all those contacts can be highly complex and part of the air-to-air challenge. Now it's hoping that ED will incorporate a IFF/ROE PROG page as it definitely impacts gameplay: e.g. it may prompt you to go for a visual ID in some cases (e.g. is the SU24 Russian or Syrian which may change ROE), drastically changing the chance to get into dogfighting vs BVR combat etc.

 

Wags/ED, can you give any clarity whether this will be included?

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Great, thanks AvroLanc and Dudikoff! Indeed, that was the answer to my question. It makes sense that it's a dynamic rule set which can be changed based on the local theatre situation. For example, in Syria with the Syrian AF, Russian AF, and coalition AFs flying around, you may want to prevent classifying Russian SU35s as hostile to prevent an accidental international incident. Or in a hypothetical conflict with Iraq you may encounter Iraqi F16s but in the north you may run into Turkish F16s.

 

 

 

I reckon that deconflicting all those contacts can be highly complex and part of the air-to-air challenge. Now it's hoping that ED will incorporate a IFF/ROE PROG page as it definitely impacts gameplay: e.g. it may prompt you to go for a visual ID in some cases (e.g. is the SU24 Russian or Syrian which may change ROE), drastically changing the chance to get into dogfighting vs BVR combat etc.

 

 

 

Wags/ED, can you give any clarity whether this will be included?

The scenarios you mentioned are indeed why visual ID is still very much a thing IRL. I really like this layer of realism and I hope it gets refined further, as well as incorporated in all aircraft, one way or another, to level the playing field (wouldn't be fair for you to have to get close to the MiG to confirm that it's hostile, while he knows you're hostile as soon as he detects you on his radar).

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Good point, where is the option in the hornet? I don't see it.
It's not yet implemented for the Hornet, but you can join a server with human players acting as AWACS or GCI, they will do this for you.

 

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The scenarios you mentioned are indeed why visual ID is still very much a thing IRL. I really like this layer of realism and I hope it gets refined further, as well as incorporated in all aircraft, one way or another, to level the playing field (wouldn't be fair for you to have to get close to the MiG to confirm that it's hostile, while he knows you're hostile as soon as he detects you on his radar).

 

Yeah indeed, although as far as I'm concerned it doesn't have to be implemented in AI aircraft as long as it's in the hornet. If you have an unknown contact due to NCTR ambiguity, you'll know that they're hostile as soon as they fire on you. In case he doesn't fire it can be a neutral party or a hostile fighter not equipped for/or instructed to engage air-to-air.

 

One other thing I was thinking about: a scenario where you fighting an enemy that has F16s, so ROE NCTR matrix would be set that F16 is hostile (all USAF and allied F16s would be Mode 4 positive and therefore classify as friendly regardless). In case you have a friendly F16 where mode 4 inactivates in flight for whatever reason, can you manually classify that particular contact as friendly without changing NCTR ROE matrix?

 

Is this also part of the data cartridge that ED is programming or does the ROE/PROG page need to be set before every flight?

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Yeah indeed, although as far as I'm concerned it doesn't have to be implemented in AI aircraft as long as it's in the hornet. If you have an unknown contact due to NCTR ambiguity, you'll know that they're hostile as soon as they fire on you. In case he doesn't fire it can be a neutral party or a hostile fighter not equipped for/or instructed to engage air-to-air.

 

 

 

One other thing I was thinking about: a scenario where you fighting an enemy that has F16s, so ROE NCTR matrix would be set that F16 is hostile (all USAF and allied F16s would be Mode 4 positive and therefore classify as friendly regardless). In case you have a friendly F16 where mode 4 inactivates in flight for whatever reason, can you manually classify that particular contact as friendly without changing NCTR ROE matrix?

 

 

 

Is this also part of the data cartridge that ED is programming or does the ROE/PROG page need to be set before every flight?

I don't know the extent of depth that ED will go to or if the page will be fully implemented. I guess that in that case, you disregard NCTR at the very least.

The general rule is that you don't fire unless you are sure that the bogey is hostile and you get clearance from the AWACS.

If you're unsure, you should call out in the shared tactical frequency "Raygun and your target's bearing from Bullseye and Altitude". If you get a "Buddy Spike" answer, you were locking up the answering pilot.

If a friendly pilot is being locked by a friendly radar, they'll declare "Buddy Spike" on the radio, along with their Bullseye position and altitude.

All of the above is a lot of workload that will probably eliminate the Air-Quake approach that many MP servers have, since you need to work with other players and the AWACS, to avoid team-killing. And that's a good thing in my book.

The reason I want to be implemented in all flyable aircraft and then AI aircraft as well is that there is a clear tactical advantage in knowing exactly who's who on the battlefield, immediately.

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I don't know the extent of depth that ED will go to or if the page will be fully implemented. I guess that in that case, you disregard NCTR at the very least.

The general rule is that you don't fire unless you are sure that the bogey is hostile and you get clearance from the AWACS.

If you're unsure, you should call out in the shared tactical frequency "Raygun and your target's bearing from Bullseye and Altitude". If you get a "Buddy Spike" answer, you were locking up the answering pilot.

If a friendly pilot is being locked by a friendly radar, they'll declare "Buddy Spike" on the radio, along with their Bullseye position and altitude.

All of the above is a lot of workload that will probably eliminate the Air-Quake approach that many MP servers have, since you need to work with other players and the AWACS, to avoid team-killing. And that's a good thing in my book.

The reason I want to be implemented in all flyable aircraft and then AI aircraft as well is that there is a clear tactical advantage in knowing exactly who's who on the battlefield, immediately.

 

Makes sense that indeed they have buddy spike checks in effect. By the way, it appears from a super hornet sim manual that there could be a PLID (Pilot ID) suboption in the SA-page that allows a pilot to classify contacts manually.

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  • 7 months later...

To prevent opening up another thread on this:

 

How about multiplayer? Flying the F/A-18C or F-14B for BLUE... would the IFF/NCTR identify (for example) RED F/A-18C as enemy?

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The scenarios you mentioned are indeed why visual ID is still very much a thing IRL. I really like this layer of realism and I hope it gets refined further, as well as incorporated in all aircraft, one way or another, to level the playing field (wouldn't be fair for you to have to get close to the MiG to confirm that it's hostile, while he knows you're hostile as soon as he detects you on his radar).

 

Except that is real life too. Sometimes based on the specific AOR ROE, you might require a VID while the bandit does not. And yes, you are at a huge disadvantage in that scenario. But there are specific ways to deal with it and fighter crews train to that scenario. Link-16 has certainly made all that usually easier, but it doesn't remove the need for a pure VID on occasion before you can shoot.

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Except that is real life too. Sometimes based on the specific AOR ROE, you might require a VID while the bandit does not. And yes, you are at a huge disadvantage in that scenario. But there are specific ways to deal with it and fighter crews train to that scenario. Link-16 has certainly made all that usually easier, but it doesn't remove the need for a pure VID on occasion before you can shoot.

It can happen IRL, of course, but it happens all the time in DCS. Even at 100 NM, the AI will immediately know you're hostile. Makes it impossible to simulate certain scenarios, unless you use triggers in the ME. A per-coalition ROE matrix editor in the ME would be most welcome.

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Yes, it will show up as hostile. Think of each coalition (red/blue) having their own different sets of Mode 4 encryption.

 

Got it! Thanks! :thumbup:

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Yes, it will show up as hostile. Think of each coalition (red/blue) having their own different sets of Mode 4 encryption.

 

But lack of correct Mode 4 should usually be enough to classify a contact as hostile. Most of the time IRL, if there's a chance of the same aircraft being on both sides, I'm guessing NCTR (or simply aircraft type) and lack of IFF response would not be enough to declare a hostile (think of a friendly whose IFF isn't working properly). There are other things that can be considered, like point of origin (where does the bogey come from - ie. enemy territory or airbase), use of briefed passage points or corridors... I guess it can all be automated up to some point really, and after that manual declaration is required.

 

I also would like very much to see further refinements in this area for DCS, and having them working with all flyable aircraft (when they're able). ROE matrix for AI would be a great bonus.

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