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Projecting touch down point when flying on speed AoA


agathorn

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Hi all,

 

Until now all of my ladings in the F5 have been done more "traditionally" ALA flying a Cessna. I've completely ignored the AoA indexer and not paid any attention to the AoA indicator to get the correct AoA as per the dash 1.

 

Now I'm trying to do it properly and a fly times I've managed to get the donut but have one really big problem. With this nose up attitude I can't really project my true velocity very well and thus am unable to correctly judge where i'm going to touch down. So often I find i'm coming in short and have to desperately apply power, and go around.

 

Any tips?

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Advanced apologies if my post contains typos or missing letters. Many of my posts are typed on a laptop with an old keyboard that has a personality all its own.

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Raise the seat a good bit to keep your eye on the runway, that usually takes care of it.

 

Changing the seat height in VR is a bit tricky because the height also resets when you do VR center.

 

Also I never really know what the "right" height is lol. I mean I feel like the HUD is designed to viewed at a very specific angle and adjusting he seat height may mess with that?

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Advanced apologies if my post contains typos or missing letters. Many of my posts are typed on a laptop with an old keyboard that has a personality all its own.

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What about using a runway like 13 at Batumi that is serviced by a visual glide slope aid (4 light PAPI on the left IIRC)? That way you would have your AOA for an on speed indication and the PAPI for a slope indication while you build up a mental picture of what looks “right.”

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What about using a runway like 13 at Batumi that is serviced by a visual glide slope aid (4 light PAPI on the left IIRC)? That way you would have your AOA for an on speed indication and the PAPI for a slope indication while you build up a mental picture of what looks “right.”

 

That's a good idea! I've been flying in and out of Nellis butI could give that a try. Have to learn how to use that system though lol.

Intel i7-4770k @ 4.4ghz, 32gb ram, GTX 1080ti, Oculus Rift S

 

Advanced apologies if my post contains typos or missing letters. Many of my posts are typed on a laptop with an old keyboard that has a personality all its own.

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Here is a link to the FAR/AIM describing the system.

 

I believe they are always on, but if not calling inbound to the airport should ensure they are lit as long as the airbase is on your “side”. I wish I could test that without guessing but I am away from my machine.

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Fly a lot!. Make a lot of touch and go. Fly your downwind leg in landing config with landing gear and flap down. The idea is to get used to fly in landing configuration, find out your power setting and flying attitude in order to get a level flight condition. There is no magic instrument, just practice.

 

Once on final, reduce your power and use speedbrak as needed. Do not cut power until 10 feet above the runway, becuase you need a fast response if you have to go round. Speedbrake is good for that.

 

I fly with FBB, so I can feel my plane a little more. After using FBB joystick, my approach and touch down have improved a lot.

 

Salute

Gavilan

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The way I do it with older aircraft without HUDs is to use the sight picture. Once descending and on-speed, pick a landmark (like the runway edge) and stare at it in relation to your cockpit. If it moves up, you're descending too quickly and need to add power. If it moves down, you're descending too shallow and need to cut some power. Ideally it shouldn't move at all, just get larger and larger. I didn't learn this until I learned proper landing in the Huey but it's really useful all the time.

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Agathorn,

 

This is actually a really good question. I flew in the USAF, and now at the airlines. The jets I flew until the airlines were all like big cessnas, by which I mean they had no slats (leading edge devices). In that kind of airplane, you do just like you do in a cessna... you point the nose at the runway and hold an airspeed, then round out, chop power, and flare. Because you are going to float a little as your round-out and flare, you can normally aim short of your intended touch down point.

 

In a plane like the F-5, or F-18, or anything with leading edge slats -- you have to fly AOA. It is the same idea, but because the nose will be up above the horizon, it came make seeing a challenge. The F-5 (and most fighters) fly an 11 degree AOA approach. So on a normal 3 degree glide slope -- you nose is 8 degrees above the horizon. That is pretty nose high to get the "on speed" indication. Raising your seat is the best option. Both the Hornet and the F-5 have a switch you can program to raise and lower the seat position in the jet (not your VR viewpoint). I raise it to the maximum position prior to landing. That allows you to see the runway well, and keep your aim-point.

 

My technique for landing leading edge equipped aircraft is to aim for my aim-point, hold the AOA attitude with the stick, and adjust power as needed to keep "on speed". You can then add a little power before touchdown to "flare with power," or you can still round-out, and flare -- but hold the power on. You may well end up landing with some power still on the jet.

 

Hope that helps, good luck. It's a great sim -- I think ground effect could be better though, and that makes a big difference in landing real life.

Dances, PhD

Jet Hobo

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That's a good idea! I've been flying in and out of Nellis butI could give that a try. Have to learn how to use that system though lol.

As tom_19d pointed out, flying approaches with PAPI equipped runways is a good idea e.g. Batumi.

 

Not much to learn. 2 white and 2 red is correct. Since you don't need the correct 'civil' threshold clearance, even 3 red and 1 white is acceptable, but I would initially stay with 2+2.

The lower below the 3deg glidepath you are, the more red lights you will see.

Hence the saying (if you forget which color is the 'safe' one): red over red, you are dead.

 

I'm flying with the default viewpoint and I don't have any problem in seeing the aimpoint.

I also tend to fly with both AoA indexers illuminated. On speed + too fast. This gives you bit of an additional speed margin for a nice flare.

If you can't see your aimpoint, chances are that your approach is too shallow (and hence a too high pitch attitude).

 

Btw, the correct glidepath is easy to calculate; your speed divided by 2 times 10. E.g 150kts / 2 x 10 = 750ft/min.

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The F-5 (and most fighters) fly an 11 degree AOA approach.

 

@BigTatanka, do you happen to remember where you saw the 11 degree number with regards to the F5? I don’t doubt your experience or anything like that, I just like getting into the books and I don’t remember ever seeing anything other than AOA “units” as shown by the gauge. Thanks.

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The concept of aimpoint is your friend here. You want to see your intended point of touchdown remain in the same spot relative to the windscreen and the gunsight lens. If you're on final and start to see it rise, you're falling below glideslope. If you see it start to fall, you're going above glideslope. This will absolutely take some practice. I'll refrain from beating the dead horse of the F-5 not being a fancy 4th-gen jet where you can just "put the thing on the thing" and nail it every time.

 

I also recommend utilizing the PAPI/VASI where it's available, as well as raising your seat. I used to fly the T-38A and T-38C (briefly) in P3D, and unless there are some significant dimensional differences between the cockpits of the T-38 and the F-5, I'm fairly certain the default view for the DCS F-5E has you sitting too low.

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I used to fly the T-38A and T-38C (briefly) in P3D, and unless there are some significant dimensional differences between the cockpits of the T-38 and the F-5, I'm fairly certain the default view for the DCS F-5E has you sitting too low.

You can't compare these two. Especially since the shape and dimensions of the Milviz T-38A and C are quite a bit off (and the default viewpoint on their T-38 is way too low as well.)

 

Btw, the sound of the seat being raised (because they were way too slow) was one of the last things that could be heard on the CVR before the Asiana 777 crashed.

 

So if the default viewpoint is ok, loosing sight of the runway can be a hint that there's something unusual happening ;)


Edited by bbrz

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@BigTatanka, do you happen to remember where you saw the 11 degree number with regards to the F5?

I could only find the numbers for the T-38 (which used the same wing section) after a quick search.

Vapp = 1.2 Vst = 7° true AoA with flaps 40° and 9° with flaps up.

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I could only find the numbers for the T-38 (which used the same wing section) after a quick search.

Vapp = 1.2 Vst = 7° true AoA with flaps 40° and 9° with flaps up.

 

Thanks for the info bbrz, that makes sense to me and seems to line up with what my impression has always been from the cockpit.

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The F-5 (and most fighters) fly an 11 degree AOA approach.

 

 

It actually depends. The F-16, surely. The F-15, maybe (I can't remember right now, to be honest). But not the F-14 or the F/A-18 or the Mirage 2000. All those jets approach with a rather high AoA but it still varies a lot.

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