New move in favor Aim-120? No R-27ER LA while they have it?

is happening to me enemy launch in very high altitude +9000m and from 60-70km and I still don't get LA with R-27ER while Aim-120 is already on me active with huge speed.

That is happening to you guys?? Please go multiplayer and test some fight with this enemy settings.

if this is confirmed this is a new change in Aim-120 physics... be aware of that...

Just to have an idea of the impact of this new bias. I just took-off from my Airbase and did a quick climb to 5000m and in a very short time the Aim-120 impact on me and the launcher enemy laughed on the S-300 and on me.

This is the new move. Not even S-300 can reach an fighter defending home Airbases and we with R-27ER even worst.

Edit: for some reason every track with this fight settings are corrupted, not a single track to proof this new move from developers.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=4422474#post4422474

Here is another example of what we (the R-27ER users) are talking about. They told us that Russian government doesn't allow simulate four generation fighters. Then look on this physics implementation for the "not allowed'' fighters.

First missiles action started at 50km distance. Not because my system allowed me to do it. I just did an Launch Override just to keep him busy. Otherwise the physics implemented in this simulator for R-27ER will not allow launch from 50km. Notice that this missile is currently combat active in last RU fighters like Su-35. Also notice that doesn't matter I have ECM ON and I am on terrain mask. that not apply for simulation so thats why he is willing to start combat at 50km because inside 50km the ECM are trash in this simulator. Just go ahead and look what they do instead with Aim-120:

Here in this picture you can see the Aim-120 on the top of the picture. Please notice I did already two aggressive maneuvers for nothing, just look the quiet and easy job trajectory the simulate for interception. at the other side look my missile biting the ground. not only that... look the deep dive the F-18 performs loosing guidance for his missile that keep fallow me. Seem all are easy coded here.

different view of above:

Here we get into ~30km distance and you can see my 3 missiles still dont reach the half of the distance and the Aim-120 is already on me with about 1,5mach:

At this point he is about 5500m altitude and me about 2500m after a lot of maneuvers. Please notice the amount of maneuvers in smoked red and the exaggerated curved trajectory of my missiles. Look the blue trajectory of the Aim-120 that not even bothered to look for an interception point compared to the exaggerated R-27ER trajectory:

This is the second Aim-120 launch momentum. Please look that F-18 not even turn on me to get a right initial guidance with 63 degrees respect me from 27km and was strong enough to kill me. I just outperformed that cheat with high maneuvers while take a look on my missiles... they go 10km ahead in interception...

After 3 missiles spent on me and all three evaded, we finally found each other in 12km distance both alive. Please look the 90 degrees direction at this launch momentum of me respect the F-18 with very low altitude and using the mountains as mask. At this point he was still high with some contrail. After I tried my IRST EOS at this moment and failed to get his heat even when the sky was clear. I tried a quick change with vertical scan to launch my R-77 and was too late. anyway this last try with poor hopes because the R-77 is also a trash from this distance if the enemy maneuvers.:doh:

Have you checked does a TacView get anything?

Have you checked does a TacView get anything?

I just flies in 10 min delayed Tacview and no units map show. That mean I will not get this fresh tacview. Sorry

This is a close example what Aim-120 is doing now. The strange situation here in my case is that I never reached more than 5000m and my enemy was able to use the TWS. I also used ECM but as we all know ECM have not effect on radar in 50km range ( Upps developers don’t want to simulate ECM, but they simulate all the capabilities in F-16 and F-18... ) basically They are using a tactic of reach +8000m high for less air density and shot on you on pitbull for after a while lock again on you taking advantage of the unrealistic and bias 50km non ECM issues in missile guiding correction.

As we all know our S-300 use the shortest missiles range in his inventory so they can take over a base with S-300 so easy only using those tactics with new super range AIM-120 physics.

Some point to describe. I never reach a high altitude even when Aim-120 got a speed of 2300km/h at impact.

They have not reach even supersonic speed to launch on 8000m. So is a little like climbing and and shot then their job is easy done.

Oh gosh not this again... you think CFD's and research on the rocket motors are for "bias" and making russian missiles ineffective? Please. If that was their goal it would have been done long ago. And I am not saying that the CFDs etc are prefect. But you arent providing data/evidence that is remotely helpful in adjusting the missiles. You are merely whining about how your favorite missile is now ineffective vs AMRAAMs. And yes, I am fully aware that both our ER and SA-10s are in desperate need of an update. I wish ED had honestly done them at the same time. But whining about why the AMRAAM was updated first is not going to change what has happened, nor make the ER/SA-10 updates happen any faster. ED already has been notified about the problems with the ER and SA-10. It's up to ED do do the work. We have to be patient.

EDIT: also, have you actually been on any MP servers as of late? Cuz I have, flying against AMRAAM carriers, and I can assure you that the missile is not going active at 70km. That's 37nm. There is no way the A-Pole is that far away.

Oh gosh not this again... you think CFD's and research on the rocket motors are for "bias" and making russian missiles innefective? Please. If that was their goal it would have been done long ago. And I am not saying that the CFDs etc are prefect. But you arent providing data/evidence that is remotely helpful in adjusting the missiles. You are merely whining about how your favorite missile is now innefective vs AMRAAMs. And yes, I am fully aware that both our ER and SA-10s are in desperate need of an update. I wish ED had honestly done them at the same time. But whining about why the AMRAAM was updated first is not going to change what has happened, nor make the ER/SA-10 updates happen any faster. ED already has been notified about the problems with the ER and SA-10. It's up to ED do do the work. We have to be patient.

Thanks for posting what I could not lol

This is a close example what Aim-120 is doing now...

 

Hmmm... That’s pretty cool. A 60 mile kill.

Also seem at low altitude the missiles behave worst so at this case will be better keep low flight. Seem developers want to set an air dominance in very high altitude since ECM keep in the unrealistic 50km not affected then the only option left if terrain cover.

Also seem at low altitude the missiles behave worst so at this case will be better keep low flight. Seem developers want to set an air dominance in very high altitude since ECM keep in the unrealistic 50km not affected then the only option left if terrain cover.

The first part is 100% wrong, the AMRAAMs are MUCH better at low alt. Straight-line kinematics arent everything. It has a much more realistic lift now, so I doesnt just bleed all its speed in a simple 9G turn. Combine that with the better guidance, improved chaff resistance, its much better at low altitude than it was before. Please stop spreading this misinformation and speculation to support you "agrument" that ED is intentionally trying to make Russian equipment obsolete.

Hmmm... That’s pretty cool. A 60 mile kill.

...You forgot the part where the targets flew right into the missile with almost no maneuvering :megalol:.

CFD'd R-27 won't make a huge difference for Rmax because it is hugely constrained by operating time and lack of lofting.. It will change things a bit inside the R-27's Rmax though, an in particular in the slower/higher-AoA regime which will help the missile remain effective at longer ranges.

The rest is guidance, but it will still always be inferior to any AIM-120.

Personally I'm waiting to see what changes the FM will bring to the R-77.

...You forgot the part where the targets flew right into the missile with almost no maneuvering :megalol:.

:) No I didn’t. The way it was done the targets only had about 3-4 seconds warning. Flying at 1+ Mach, how much maneuvering do you think you’d fit in from the WTF moment until impact?

:) No I didn’t. The way it was done the targets only had about 3-4 seconds warning. Flying at 1+ Mach, how much maneuvering do you think you’d fit in from the WTF moment until impact?

None, which is why you have the MAR.

To improve our success to face this bias developing actions I suggest have ECM ON until 50km range and keep a aggressive maneuver leaving enemy to a side in our HUD. Never flies straight head on when you see they reach +8000m. They are reaching this high altitude to make this launch on pitbull in case you have ECM on or using the way of the video mention before.

But... having ECM on as you know is tricky for the RU fighters. They still can launch on HOJ ECM so as we all know the developers set a unrealistic Long time delaying the ECM to be activated so of course that will be also against us. The best way to solve this tricky issue: just off-back ON the ECM while aggressive maneuvering. That will avoid a possible HOJ launch and also will brake the lock on you.

Please if possible do all together launching some chaff

Again. We are discussing here something to solve this specific action from developers in the game. In Real Life ECM will leave guided missiles in very bad situation. That’s why they don’t want to apply a close real ECM to keep the game in favor F fighters. Otherwise R-27ET will have better success than now have with this ridiculous ECM implementation.

So you should work on all together using to the max the few options they leave to Su-27 or any Ru.

None, which is why you have the MAR.

Ok. I’ll bite. What’s MAR?

Ok. I’ll bite. What’s MAR?

Minimum Abort Range, if you perform a sliceback/Split-S outside of MAR you will be able to kinematically defeat it, but inside you no longer have the option of turning cold.

While granted, DCS is currently in a very weird transitional period in regards to missile modeling and radar as well.

I don't think OP should scream bloody murder in this fashion, it certainly doesn't help his case

Maybe inquiring about the progress of ECM implementation/Adder & Alamo performance in a slightly more erudite fashion might work, get more flies with honey than vinegar and all that jazz.

...It has a much more realistic lift now, so I doesnt just bleed all its speed in a simple 9G turn.... Please stop spreading this misinformation and speculation to support you "agrument" that ED is intentionally trying to make Russian equipment obsolete.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think only AIM-120 should loose less speed when pulling Gs. I mean it doesn't matter if a plane, a missile or a washing machine is pulling the same amount of Gs, they should all loose the same amount of energy - they are exchanging speed (kinetic energy) for angles (change in flight path). My previous statement is in case when neither of the mentioned objects has any thrust whilst pulling the Gs.

When it comes to Russian A/C getting more obsolete: well, all I can say is that I've flown Red A/C since the times of LockOn and it alwyas felt that Blue had slight advantage, but those differences were quite tinny, in my opinion. However, today I see things which make absolutely no sense:

• F-18s flying at 10km and bombing Russian fleet like they were wood-models
  
• Russian SAMs not being able to hit a target from 5-8km distance. Yes I have a recording of an F-18 dodging 5-6 SAMs being launched at it from different platforms.
  
• Try reading an RWR of Su-25T
  
• Try reading the instruments in a MiG-29A/S at night
  
• I am not even going to mention R-27s - this discussion was mentioned so many times
  
• Su-27 has a roll-rate and roll-inertia similar to something like A380, all though I've noticed similar behavior in an F-15
  
• AIM-120s fired in TWS just need to be in the approx. area of the target because even if the launching radar looses its track (in TWS) they magically scan everything in front of them (once pit-bull) and lock-on to a target in a microsecond and then keep out sending LA warning to the target's RWR even when they have no more energy left and are just dangling in the sky (like a balloon)
  
• Try reading the instruments of an Su-33 during the day
  
• And yeah, for some reason ECM takes some time to "warm up" before it switches on
  

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think only AIM-120 should loose less speed when pulling Gs. I mean it doesn't matter if a plane, a missile or a washing machine is pulling the same amount of Gs, they should all loose the same amount of energy - they are exchanging speed (kinetic energy) for angles (change in flight path). My previous statement is in case when neither of the mentioned objects has any thrust whilst pulling the Gs.

The issue isnt whether It should bleed energy. The issue is how much, and prior to the update it was excessive due to the unreasonably low lift.

 

• F-18s flying at 10km and bombing Russian fleet like they were wood-models
  
• Russian SAMs not being able to hit a target from 5-8km distance. Yes I have a recording of an F-18 dodging 5-6 SAMs being launched at it from different platforms.
  
• Try reading an RWR of Su-25T
  
• Try reading the instruments in a MiG-29A/S at night
  
• I am not even going to mention R-27s - this discussion was mentioned so many times
  
• Su-27 has a roll-rate and roll-inertia similar to something like A380, all though I've noticed similar behavior in an F-15
  
• AIM-120s fired in TWS just need to be in the approx. area of the target because even if the launching radar looses its track (in TWS) they magically scan everything in front of them (once pit-bull) and lock-on to a target in a microsecond and then keep out sending LA warning to the target's RWR even when they have no more energy left and are just dangling in the sky (like a balloon)
  
• Try reading the instruments of an Su-33 during the day
  
• And yeah, for some reason ECM takes some time to "warm up" before it switches on
  

2 Is for basically all DCS SAMs tbh, DCS SAMs are very memey imo.

6, I really havent found the Su-27 roll to be that bad. Imo the F-16s roll, in DCS anyway, is worse.

7, while it is scanning too fast afaik, the missile doesnt just give up when the lock is lost. Its going to try and find the target again. As for missiles dangling, why should it stop giving RWR pulses just because its slow. I could easily be wrong but I dont see why the radar would turn off.

8, yes the Su-33 instruments are bugged, not sure since when tho. It looks pretty recent tho.

The rest I pretty much agree with (tho again the ECM warm up is for all of FC3 not just red)

Here is another example of what we (the R-27ER users) are talking about. They told us that Russian government doesn't allow simulate four generation fighters. Then look on this physics implementation for the "not allowed'' fighters. I will copy paste this post in my first post here to people have a better picture what we are talking about...

First missiles action started at 50km distance. Not because my system allowed me to do it. I just did an Launch Override just to keep him busy. Otherwise the physics implemented in this simulator for R-27ER will not allow launch from 50km. Notice that this missile is currently combat active in last RU fighters like Su-35. Also notice that doesn't matter I have ECM ON and I am on terrain mask. that not apply for simulation so thats why he is willing to start combat at 50km because inside 50km the ECM are trash in this simulator. Just go ahead and look what they do instead with Aim-120:

Here in this picture you can see the Aim-120 on the top of the picture. Please notice I did already two aggressive maneuvers for nothing, just look the quiet and easy job trajectory the simulate for interception. at the other side look my missile biting the ground. not only that... look the deep dive the F-18 performs loosing guidance for his missile that keep fallow me. Seem all are easy coded here.

different view of above:

Here we get into ~30km distance and you can see my 3 missiles still dont reach the half of the distance and the Aim-120 is already on me with about 1,5mach:

At this point he is about 5500m altitude and me about 2500m after a lot of maneuvers. Please notice the amount of maneuvers in smoked red and the exaggerated curved trajectory of my missiles. Look the blue trajectory of the Aim-120 that not even bothered to look for an interception point compared to the exaggerated R-27ER trajectory:

This is the second Aim-120 launch momentum. Please look that F-18 not even turn on me to get a right initial guidance with 63 degrees respect me from 27km and was strong enough to kill me. I just outperformed that cheat with high maneuvers while take a look on my missiles... they go 10km ahead in interception...

After 3 missiles spent on me and all three evaded, we finally found each other in 12km distance both alive. Please look the 90 degrees direction at this launch momentum of me respect the F-18 with very low altitude and using the mountains as mask. At this point he was still high with some contrail. After I tried my IRST EOS at this moment and failed to get his heat even when the sky was clear. I tried a quick change with vertical scan to launch my R-77 and was too late. anyway this last try with poor hopes because the R-77 is also a trash from this distance if the enemy maneuvers.:doh:

The 27ER users don't have it easy that's for sure. It's almost impossible for them to compete in a true BVR engagement.

Something else : In that video, how do they keep the MFD from autoscaling ?

Something else : In that video, how do they keep the MFD from autoscaling ?

Dude This thread is not about MFD. keep looking in the forum for the right place for your question because your question is not even about Su-27 video or R-27ER... the pictures you see below are from a Tacview flight record.

pepin can you link the actual tacview file? Its kinda hard to see whats going on in those phone screenshots

Shift+Win+S combo in Win10 allows you take easily screenshots. Please don't use camera to take "screenshots" as they are nothing more than difficult to look.