Red Aircraft

I understand there are some very restrictive political forces at play with regards to development of full fidelity Eastern aircraft, but I was wondering up to what era would be possible? Mig-25? Mig-23? I hope we'll be able to get something beyond the Mig-21. I'd like to reiterate I do appreciate the constraints, but would like to see a respected adversary well represented. It is what it is though and thank you Devs for an unparalleled product!

Agreed

+1 The list of full fidelity aircraft seem to very much favour western aircraft

+1 also. Sort of. I agree that there are some notable gaps in the inventories of both sides which I mentioned in my first post yesterday. Then I was promptly advised to read the proposed roadmap for upcoming content, in which some of my planes were listed. I'm going back to it in fact.

A couple of things. Fighter wise, the Russians are really short of options. But what they have is the cream of the crop. The MiG-29 has incredible medium fighter performance, and is armed with the Archer missile with a wide axis of track, while the Su-27 is a superfighter in almost every way. While it can be argued that the F-15 has similar performance to the Su-27, there really isn't a comparable fighter to the MiG, though the Mirage 2000 can compete with it in the right hands. And to be sure, the Russians have the only real attack helicopter in the game. In my mind, the only truly comparable aircraft East to West are the Su-25 and A-10, and MiG-21 and F-5E. More aircraft are coming like the F/A-18, but that just provides a proper counter to the MiG-29, and we don't know for sure when that's being released.

I'd also be careful what to wish for. My list in the F-16 thread had a fairly good apples to apples basket of aircraft in a few categories. While the MiG-25 and it big brother MiG-31 are capable aircraft, those guys are mostly interceptors with quite limited fighting capability, and are handily outclassed by just about all the fighters in the DCS inventory. I think they would fare about as well in a dogfight as an F-111, a U.S. attack aircraft. I'm thinking that everyone lusting after the F-14 are in a similar boat, as it's more of a 3.5 or better generation fighter, but not a true 4th gen like the MiG-29, Su-27, F-15, 16 and 18. I saw a video of a test engagement of an F-14 with expert A.I. versus an Su-27, and the Flanker won 5-0. But for carrier scenarios, it does make a good mix with the F/A-18.

I like the MiG-23 and 27 too, and with the Mirage F1 would be an essential ingredient with any Middle Eastern campaign. But pure interceptors like the MiG-25, F-104 and 106 would suffer badly in a dogfight, so I think those would be best with A.I. assets you could fly as you wished as extra jets.

People will learn quickly I like to type a lot. I'm a budding writer. ;)

+1 also. Sort of. I agree that there are some notable gaps in the inventories of both sides which I mentioned in my first post yesterday. Then I was promptly advised to read the proposed roadmap for upcoming content, in which some of my planes were listed. I'm going back to it in fact.

 

A couple of things. Fighter wise, the Russians are really short of options. But what they have is the cream of the crop. The MiG-29 has incredible medium fighter performance, and is armed with the Archer missile with a wide axis of track, while the Su-27 is a superfighter in almost every way. While it can be argued that the F-15 has similar performance to the Su-27, there really isn't a comparable fighter to the MiG, though the Mirage 2000 can compete with it in the right hands. And to be sure, the Russians have the only real attack helicopter in the game. In my mind, the only truly comparable aircraft East to West are the Su-25 and A-10, and MiG-21 and F-5E. More aircraft are coming like the F/A-18, but that just provides a proper counter to the MiG-29, and we don't know for sure when that's being released.

 

I'd also be careful what to wish for. My list in the F-16 thread had a fairly good apples to apples basket of aircraft in a few categories. While the MiG-25 and it big brother MiG-31 are capable aircraft, those guys are mostly interceptors with quite limited fighting capability, and are handily outclassed by just about all the fighters in the DCS inventory. I think they would fare about as well in a dogfight as an F-111, a U.S. attack aircraft. I'm thinking that everyone lusting after the F-14 are in a similar boat, as it's more of a 3.5 or better generation fighter, but not a true 4th gen like the MiG-29, Su-27, F-15, 16 and 18. I saw a video of a test engagement of an F-14 with expert A.I. versus an Su-27, and the Flanker won 5-0. But for carrier scenarios, it does make a good mix with the F/A-18.

 

I like the MiG-23 and 27 too, and with the Mirage F1 would be an essential ingredient with any Middle Eastern campaign. But pure interceptors like the MiG-25, F-104 and 106 would suffer badly in a dogfight, so I think those would be best with A.I. assets you could fly as you wished as extra jets.

 

People will learn quickly I like to type a lot. I'm a budding writer. ;)

While I do agree with your points, allow me to remind you that the current Soviet/Russian fighters in DCS - apart from the MiG-21 - are FC3 aircraft. While they can most assuredly be used tactically in a realistic way they are still simpler to operate than the upcoming F-14 and F/A-18.

As the OP request, users wish for more DCS-level simulations of any fighter from the Red side, really. A classic among wishes would be a full fidelity MiG-29, even if only an early variant, though even thag may be too optimistic to wish for.

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

[...]In my mind, the only truly comparable aircraft East to West are the Su-25 and A-10, and MiG-21 and F-5E.[...]

and F-86 and MiG-15 ;)

While I do agree with your points, allow me to remind you that the current Soviet/Russian fighters in DCS - apart from the MiG-21 - are FC3 aircraft. While they can most assuredly be used tactically in a realistic way they are still simpler to operate than the upcoming F-14 and F/A-18.

I'm becoming aware of new definitions here, like "full fidelity."

Hmm. I was under the impression that the MiG-29A was as full fidelity as they could get, though I'm not as hot to fly it as I am the Western guys. I know the F/A-18 is a special case somehow, not sure how they managed to get out of the U.S. what they did. The F-14 is a surprise.

Maybe Russia being run by an ex-KGB guy, they want to hold ED "hostage" and squeeze as many rubles out of them as possible or no deal. I'm sure that that RSK MiG would want their legacy to be well represented in a game with competing western designs, as would the other design bureaus, so it must be Das Kremlin. Hopefully that's not too political.

Not being a hardcore simmer, I'm happy to fly simplified jets. Whatever the state they're in, I'm hopeful the To Do list in the roadmap page gets done by the early 2019, so we can see "modern" campaigns from Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, India/China, Korea and others. And those WWII, 1950s Korea and Vietnam things too as things progress.

Hi Stryker, we seem to have a fairly respectful group of IRL adversarial countries enjoying this product together. So I personally would avoid any remarks that could be considered disparaging against any leaders, political systems, etc. And I highly doubt money is the concern...

Now a friendly discussion of the virtues of certain aircraft design philosophies over others? Let's go! :)

There's lots of rumors and hints of red aircraft in the works but for the most part it's just that - rumors, dust, and echoes.

There was a lot of excitement a few months ago when RAZBAM took on a team making a MiG-19 and 23 for active development. The MiG-23 was unfortunately shut down very quickly by ED with the reasons given kept pretty close to the dev's chest, which has led to many to speculate that there's already a MiG-23 in the works, which would be a fantastic addition to DCS. That said, nothing official regarding a MiG-23 is announced by ED or any 3rd party yet. The MiG-19 continues to be developed though! :thumbup:

Another 'red' aircraft in development are the Mirage III by RAZBAM and Mirage F1 by Aviodev. Although both French and therefore NATO by nature, both were used extensively by various 'red' Middle Eastern Air Forces such as Pakistani Air Force (MIII), Iraqi Air Force (F1), Iranian Air Force (both, F1 still in service), Libyan Air Force (F1, still in service), and Jordanian Air Force (F1) so almost count as redfor planes.

If whirly-birds are more your thing then the Mi-24P is in development by Belsimtek.

On top of this there are some very cool community mods in the work. For example, one group is creating a TU-22M3 Backfire, and another is developing the Chinese/Pakistani JF-17 Thunder with suggestions and hints that they either are pressing for, or already have, 3rd party status but haven't officially announced it yet.

A final mod to keep an eye on is the SU-17M4 by Cubanace. He was looking to press for 3rd party status at some point, although I believe work has temporarily halted due to the fallout of the various hurricanes/storms to hit Florida over the last couple months.

All in all I think we're going to get more Red planes over the next few year than a lot of people think, of course everyone wants the MiG-29, SU-27, SU-25, SU-24 in DCS level modules but I think it's very difficult for ED as a Russian company to get data on the more recent redfor planes.

Thanks Cosmic! Good intel.

While I do agree with your points, allow me to remind you that the current Soviet/Russian fighters in DCS - apart from the MiG-21 - are FC3 aircraft. While they can most assuredly be used tactically in a realistic way they are still simpler to operate than the upcoming F-14 and F/A-18.

 

As the OP request, users wish for more DCS-level simulations of any fighter from the Red side, really. A classic among wishes would be a full fidelity MiG-29, even if only an early variant, though even thag may be too optimistic to wish for.

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

This is my biggest concern, as well. I want the Red pilots to have a full fidelity, study level sim to operate once I am opposing them in a Blue full fidelity sim (F-14B or F/A-18C). Basically, I don't want the red pilots to feel "left out" and or disappointed that they aren't getting planes simulated to the same level as the Blue pilots are. By the same token, I don't want a million F/A-18's in the air on both the red and blue sides in MP.

Outside of the vaunted Dynamic Campaign, a true study sim red jet is #1 on my wishlist...and I NEVER fly anything red. I just want it for equality (I am putting myself in their shoes and I know how I would feel if the tables were turned). Here's to hoping!

I'm becoming aware of new definitions here, like "full fidelity."

 

Hmm. I was under the impression that the MiG-29A was as full fidelity as they could get, though I'm not as hot to fly it as I am the Western guys. I know the F/A-18 is a special case somehow, not sure how they managed to get out of the U.S. what they did. The F-14 is a surprise.

 

Maybe Russia being run by an ex-KGB guy, they want to hold ED "hostage" and squeeze as many rubles out of them as possible or no deal. I'm sure that that RSK MiG would want their legacy to be well represented in a game with competing western designs, as would the other design bureaus, so it must be Das Kremlin. Hopefully that's not too political.

 

Not being a hardcore simmer, I'm happy to fly simplified jets. Whatever the state they're in, I'm hopeful the To Do list in the roadmap page gets done by the early 2019, so we can see "modern" campaigns from Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, India/China, Korea and others. And those WWII, 1950s Korea and Vietnam things too as things progress.

Indeed, there are 2 levels of fidelity in DCS. "FC3" (Flaming Cliffs 3 package) level, meaning, mostly the flight model is up to snuff (except the MiG-29 for the time being), but all the systems are simplified.

Then there are the DCS-level "full fidelity" modules which have been simulated on systems level to a greater degree (depending on what information is available). The easy way to tell these two levels apart is this: Does it have a clickable cockpit? If yes = a full fidelity DCS-level module; if no = an "FC3" aircraft.

The upcoming F/A-18 is the first gen 4 fighter (a swing-role aircraft, but a capable fighter nontheless) to be fully modeled in DCS. This is why it is such a big deal (among other features that it comes with) that it is coming to DCS.

Out of curiosity, which modules do you fly? If you have the opportunity, compare the A-10A and the A-10C. Yes, they are different variants so the capabilities are different, but they are still mostly comparable. And you will see the difference between FC3 and DCS.

FC3 aircraft are: Su-25T (although it is free), Su-25, MiG-29 (all variants), Su-27, Su-33, A-10A and F-15C.

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

Then there are the DCS-level "full fidelity" modules which have been simulated on systems level to a greater degree (depending on what information is available). The easy way to tell these two levels apart is this: Does it have a clickable cockpit? If yes = a full fidelity DCS-level module; if no = an "FC3" aircraft.

What about the A-4?

What about the A-4?

An official A-4 module does not yet exist. If you are talking about the Community mod A-4E, then I'd say that would be considered DCS-level, given the caveat, that the modder team does not have access to the SDK needed to provide for an EFM (external flight model, 3rd parties equivalent of ED's PFM, Profession Flight Model).

If they ever do get official 3rd party status, then I wouldn't doubt they trying to create the EFM for the aircraft. To my knowledge the team behind the A-4E mod have already pushed the boundaries of what can be done with the SFM (Standard Flight Model, accessable without the SDK).

But in short, yes the mod has a clickable cockpit, and most systems are well simulated. So yes, a DCS-level mod.

Side note: it is important here to be clear if talking about a Mod and a Module. They are not the same thing at all.

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

An official A-4 module does not yet exist. If you are talking about the Community mod A-4E, then I'd say that would be considered DCS-level, given the caveat, that the modder team does not have access to the SDK needed to provide for an EFM (external flight model, 3rd parties equivalent of ED's PFM, Profession Flight Model).

I believe EFM has been demonstrated without this SDK ... whatever that may be. I could be wrong though.

But in short, yes the mod has a clickable cockpit, and most systems are well simulated. So yes, a DCS-level mod.

So, sorry for the pointed question but, you consider it high fidelity because you can click around the pit even though it doesn't quite fly like an aircraft?

I believe EFM has been demonstrated without this SDK ... whatever that may be. I could be wrong though.

 

 

 

So, sorry for the pointed question but, you consider it high fidelity because you can click around the pit even though it doesn't quite fly like an aircraft?

SDK = Software Developement Kit. You don't have access to it unless ED gives it to you, and the EFM is not available without it.

Considering the clickability vs full fidelity. No, the clickable cockpit is not my definition of a DCS-level modeled aircraft. But if you actually have followed the Community A-4E project, you understand that the team there have done everything possible with the SFM modelling to bring the aircraft to the highest standard possible without the SDK. That with extensively modeled systems and a clickable cockpit is what I'm getting at here.

If the mod developers are to be believed, the A-4E flies exactly as intended apart from some edge cases.

For the moment, every aircraft in DCS that is clickable is also a "full fidelity aircraft". I'm not commenting on their current state (bugs of WIP features).

If an aircraft would be introduced to the sim with something in the middle of the two, I don't mind adding a new definition if needed. As for the A-4E. By all accounts it has been developed to its fullest extent considering the limitations of not being an official 3rd party developer.

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

SDK = Software Developement Kit. You don't have access to it unless ED gives it to you, and the EFM is not available without it.

To clarify, I know what an SDK (I was just wondering what form it takes), and AFAIK you don't need it for EFM. Or at least, not for the flight model part of it. Maybe you need it for some other things, but you can insert FM calculations into your own module right now and pass the results onto the game.

Considering the clickability vs full fidelity. No, the clickable cockpit is not my definition of a DCS-level modeled aircraft. But if you actually have followed the Community A-4E project, you understand that the team there have done everything possible with the SFM modelling to bring the aircraft to the highest standard possible without the SDK. That with extensively modeled systems and a clickable cockpit is what I'm getting at here.

Yep, I understand, I was asking about your perception. The technical details are another matter.

If an aircraft would be introduced to the sim with something in the middle of the two, I don't mind adding a new definition if needed. As for the A-4E. By all accounts it has been developed to its fullest extent considering the limitations of not being an official 3rd party developer.

They did a lot of interesting work for sure. I actually can't wait for that scooter :D

SDK = Software Developement Kit. You don't have access to it unless ED gives it to you, and the EFM is not available without it.

Incorrect on the latter part, sort of.

See CptSmiley's / RagnarDa's F-16 EFM demo project for a non SDK EFM.

As they explain in the blurb, the SDK does however give access to more under the hood stuff that's not in the public API, which allows you to make much higher fidelity ASM+EFM.

Back on the topic of actual red aircraft:

Hopefully the Mig-23 is brewing somewhere due to previous events as I'd like to see it.

I'd however really like to see a full fidelity MiG-29 of some description. Even a really early one would be quite a nice addition imo.

Ed has always wanted to do a DCS Su-27/MiG-29. One day it'll happen.

Russian planes lag behind in the electronics/sensors department, and those systems (A2A and A2G radars/targeting pods, RWR, MFD's etc) is what makes a module "rich"/interesting for users, and commercially reasonable for developers. To satisfy the red zone in full Ed&Co would need to implement a set of generation 4++ aircraft to match close enough to F-18 and even A-10C capabilities. But I doubt it is possible to either get any documentation on them or get permission from their design bureaus.

I understand, but the original question was up to what level could we get?

and F-86 and MiG-15 ;)

This! ;):thumbup:

Wasn't the MiG-23 "in plans" a while ago with one of the 3rd party devs, but was then quickly pulled back due to ED having some other plans... or is my memory fooling me?

Just a hunch, but I would assume a MiG-25 would be the newest aircraft from the Red side to be modelled fully to DCS at this time... the MiG29/Su-27 could perhaps follow suite afger some years, but those would probably be early variants only.

But as said, this is just a hunch. No proper fact to back it up.

I'm looking forward to the eventual MiG-23.

Another 'red' aircraft in development are the Mirage III by RAZBAM and Mirage F1 by Aviodev. Although both French and therefore NATO by nature, both were used extensively by various 'red' Middle Eastern Air Forces such as Pakistani Air Force (MIII), Iraqi Air Force (F1), Iranian Air Force (both, F1 still in service), Libyan Air Force (F1, still in service), and Jordanian Air Force (F1) so almost count as redfor planes.

 

If whirly-birds are more your thing then the Mi-24P is in development by Belsimtek.

 

On top of this there are some very cool community mods in the work. For example, one group is creating a TU-22M3 Backfire, and another is developing the Chinese/Pakistani JF-17 Thunder with suggestions and hints that they either are pressing for, or already have, 3rd party status but haven't officially announced it yet.

 

A final mod to keep an eye on is the SU-17M4 by Cubanace. He was looking to press for 3rd party status at some point, although I believe work has temporarily halted due to the fallout of the various hurricanes/storms to hit Florida over the last couple months.

That is good to know. I've seen Tornadoes, B-1s and F-16s in a few videos, so I think I should spend some time tonight looking over the Mod pages.

And I'll take this under advisement for the future.

we seem to have a fairly respectful group of IRL adversarial countries enjoying this product together. So I personally would avoid any remarks that could be considered disparaging against any leaders, political systems, etc.

FWIW, here's a sheet comparing "blue" vs "red" aircraft modules that are released, upcoming, planned, as well as some advanced, module-like mods that may or may not eventually become modules.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IImW0h0bz32fESoO-pxltRrD8MHwguzGsMQqqiM8kLc/edit?usp=sharing

Grand sum as it is:

38 confirmed Blue aircraft, 47 if not entirely confirmed ones included

vs

16 solid Red aircraft, 19 if cases of "maybe" are included as well.

So, yeah, there is a pretty huge gap if you look at what's coming.

We'll see if more aircraft from Soviet Union, Russia, China etc. will be announced.

I would really love some MiG-23, MiG-27, Su-17/22, Su-24, MiG-25, J-7, A-5C etc. Past these, it doesn't seem too likely to happen soon but, if it can, I'd love some later ones too.