so which SA-2 variant will we get? - Page 6 - ED Forums
 


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Old 05-16-2018, 02:30 PM   #51
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This is great news, because if folks like Yo-Yo are intimate with this beast it will only get us closer to that Sam sim in DCS one day! And if that arrives, my money, is ready waiting for it!
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Old 05-16-2018, 02:48 PM   #52
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Switching them off and on can already be done, and CA has a cheap IADS using fog of war. If you dont want to use that, you can string out an EWR network and script alerts for the Ground commander, which will provide an information network that's useful for illuminating choices. I already do some scripting to turn SAM's off and leave them off until planes are in detection ranges, but that cat and mouse game would be a lot of fun with a player and not a script of course. RCS is already mostly in game, most of the under the hood radars are currently done with a filter on range and aspect and RCS, which is quite cheap and basic, but does the job. I'm not sure if there is any new tech in development for radar, but I do think it needs "muddied" a bit to feel absolutely right. ECM needs a really good makeover, the current limitations are with FC3 gamed simplified versions to make it somewhat fair across the board. With things like Hornet towed decoys it will need a think for SA-2. And perhaps chaff needs to be a real thing (computational nightmare perhaps!) Harm INS accuracy would need to be really modelled well, because shutting down the tracking radar and moving it whilst a HARM is in flight, well...it's a life or death accuracy. I say bring it on! Can't wait, as a mission designer to make something where my friends live in fear on their RWR.
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Originally Posted by TwojaStara View Post
Yo-Yo, What was your role? Tracking operator? Fire control officer or maybe even battery commander? Tell us more! Were you using S-75 but Dvina or Wolchov M2? M3? with P-18?

Awesome! I don't think it even needs to be too detailed with math for AI, what would be more important for gameplay would be:

- maybe having some shortcuts for RCS (fighter with small RCS, fighter with big RCS , bomber) so there would be launch at different distance and to avoid building RCS simulation and database
- different tracking modes (half lead, half-lead elevated by constant, direct/three point) => different flight path of missiles
- more realistic of noise jamming burn-through (based on ECM % and maybe even on installed ECM pod). So one flying would really feel that having an ECM pod matters
- don't even bother with Fresnel Zone (more like: straight lines for radar simulation should be good enough for gameplay)
- better simulation of ECM others than noise jamming (S75 would need to internally know what kind of plane is that and assume some of it's ECM techniques)
- simulation of transmitter disabled but still computing plane position (so pilot is not 100% sure if he is tracked or not, missile may be even in flight)
- the simulation of radio proximity fuse [100m,300m,off/K3=detonation by RSN] based on target parameters on launch
- simulation of fake launch codes like in Vietnam so that pilot never knows if the missile is in flight or not
- some smarter built-in emulation IADS (Senezh, Vector, Asturk) for multiple S75 batteries. Just a simple logic so not all of them are always attacking or are attacking much more intelligently , see this https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=118175 (more like cat&mouse game)
- (hard) simulation of passive engagement with three point mode when fielded in group with I87 or other PRW


Such list as above would make S75 a thing that needs to be dealt with and this plays nicley with upcoming HARM for Hornet


Later of course if that will ever happen (I hope so!), I think that the bigger problem might be multiple-screens, but certainly one person is capable of managing one battery end-to-end (e.g. like multiple screens similar to RCTRL-F10/ SA15 PIP Radar / like those AWACS LUA pages? Those could be perfectly 2D images - no need for full 3D cockpits , just with good textures). One could switch between multiple S75 batteries (SNRs) in CA and even perhaps enter independent P-12/P-15/P-18 from F-10 map.

From what I can tell there is all data you need on sites such as http://rtv-pvo-gsvg.narod.ru/ (even for SDC/MTI, GshV) - I've tried to translate some via Google Translate. SAMSim quite recently got also simulation of Range Gate Pull Off/Angle Deception Jamming. In http://www.mediafire.com/download/y5...ocs_150803.rar RAR there is Advanced SA-2E that contains a lot of interesting info even not contained in SAMsim that goes into great detail what author simulates and what not. There are a lot of public engineering books in USA too, so even ECM techniques from 60,70,80s are not secret anymore.

At least we know that we (SAM fans) have Comrade in ED that really understands us and the historic balance ! Death to those pesky fighters !
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Old 05-16-2018, 07:35 PM   #53
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Just a technician. I am not so old to work at Dvina so it was M3 with P-18. And It was long, long time ago... And, no I never was there during real firing, only during live transmitting and tracking.
Technician doing what? Reloading or iron soldering? Random failures confirmed!
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:33 PM   #54
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Technician doing what? Reloading or iron soldering? Random failures confirmed!
Tubes replacement first, then find a passive element out of order, then soldering iron. And every day - zeros checking and adjustment... Potentialscopes spirals...
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:00 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Pikey View Post
I'm not sure if there is any new tech in development for radar, but I do think it needs "muddied" a bit to feel absolutely right. ECM needs a really good makeover, the current limitations are with FC3 gamed simplified versions to make it somewhat fair across the board.

Well basically, there is no radar tech in DCS, each SAM behaves the same and each ECM pods appears to be the same too (in DCS: ECM = noise jamming, ECM pod = some % range lock reduction). While in reality each individual complex could behave in various ways , e.g. for older pulse radar:

- S-75 in "wide beam" could be detected by more planes than the one locked
- in later S-75 in LORO mode could be mostly detected only by locked plane at that time (if you are not locked you cannot launch Shrike)
- S-75 could be at start of conflict switched to 2nd/wartime frequency (some of your pre-programmed ECM pods would need to be adjusted after more EW/ELINT missions)
- earlier(?) S-75 command uplinks could be jammed and it could in affect various ways affect missile (premature detonation or inability to detonate)
- curvature of earth matters at some point
- ground clutter is the worst , later S-75 variants introduced MTI to somehow reduce the impact


Now we are not even talking about sidelobs and their modeling, about interaction of various ECM techniques on specific complex, interaction of ECM on number of planes in formation (!), RCS depending on course of plane towards SAM or later advanced radars from 70s that used frequency hopping, SARH, pulse compression, continues waves, tricks with modulation.

Perhaps, instead of modeling waves by math we would need rather a model/knowledge-base with a lot of IFs and better description of capabilities of each SAM complex in some LUA internal database,sample:
S-75 Desna = Pulse,5Ghz,MTIvulnerableto[noise50%,barrage,RPGO,...]
S-75M3 Volhow = Pulse,5Ghz,LORO,MTI,vulnerableto[noise25%,barrage,RPGO,...] --> LORO, so even close planes to the locked one cannot launch HARM/Shrike
S-125M1 = Pulse,9Ghz,MTI,vulnerableto[noise25%,barrage,...]
P-12/1RL14? = EWR,Pulse,150-170MHz,vulnerableto[barrage,..] --> no MTI so would not discover low flying targets
P-18/1RL131 = EWR,Pulse,150-170MHz,MTI

And a sample ECM pod:
AN/ALQ-71 = noise_jammer, 1-8GHz (??)

And from such array you can tell that AN/ALQ-71 would have no effect at all on S-125M1 and would not block P-12/P-18 due to different freq and being not a barrage jammer.

Last edited by TwojaStara; 05-16-2018 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:24 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Yo-Yo View Post
Tubes replacement first, then find a passive element out of order, then soldering iron. And every day - zeros checking and adjustment... Potentialscopes spirals...

Nothing has changed, now you have the same with the C/C++... run... debug, identify the wrong code, rewrite, test... every day
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