Use of flaps in combat

So I'm still pretty new with WWII combat, but have always loved the p51 since I was a kid. I understand aerodynamics as that is my day job. I really struggled against bf109s and spitfires in DCS with the p51. I recently bought the 109 to get a better understanding on how it performs and with the ease of engine management and stall characteristics it is a good place to start to really understanding the art of energy management and WW2 combat I feel. But my deep desire is to shred apart these German aircraft with the p51 like Solty does in burning skies and other really well trained p51 pilots. I've read some threads on tips and handling characteristics of the mustang and notice there is some talk about flaps in turns. My question is how "much" flap do you typically use if in fact you do use them. Do you use flaps "all" the time in turns? Or only when bleeding below corner speed and need that sharp turn.

Also would I be wrong in stating that when fighting a 109 if I loose my energy below say 200mph I'm pretty much dead meat?

I appreciate any tips and secrets you ACEs out there would be willing to share!

Thanks!

I'm far from an ace but I'll make the opening:)

Generally: The P51 is about speed and keeping it. Since turnfighting costs you speed, it is not something you want to do. So in regards to flaps in turning: at best you want to avoid doing that. Proper positioning and choosing the conditions for your battle is much more important.

That being said, if you end up in the situation that you have to turnfight you want: at max 40% fuel left (otherwise the plane is quite sluggish in turns) and use 1 notch of flaps (though sometimes you can drop to two notches but that should be very very brief). As using the flaps will always result in a quite rapid speed loss, you want to keep that short (mainly when you pull the lead for a shot). Effectively, you don't want to drop below 240-220 mph on the dial anyhow as below that, the 109 will run circles around you (which is the reason you want to avoid turnfighting in the first place). You can turnfight with the 190, though usually they are wise enough not to try that. And normally, if you do that there's always at least two 109s just waiting to jump on your arse to punish you for it:)

If you take Burning Skies as an example: You don't want to be the guy first to the fight. Let the Spitfires go in first. They're the best turners, they can put up a good defensive game. Let them tangle up the opposition so they're slower than you. Once the furball has developed, look for the typical german movement (contact going up and down all the time). That's where you want to nail them, at the peak of their climb when they're slow and sluggish just about when they try to line up for a lower target again. Then you dash in, like a bat out of hell, pump them full of lead and boost out again before anyone can stick to you. At distance you turn, climb and wait for the next opportunity to pounce again.

I bet Solty will add alot more info here but that's what I would suggest.

I'm far from an ace but I'll make the opening:)

 

Generally: The P51 is about speed and keeping it. Since turnfighting costs you speed, it is not something you want to do. So in regards to flaps in turning: at best you want to avoid doing that. Proper positioning and choosing the conditions for your battle is much more important.

 

That being said, if you end up in the situation that you have to turnfight you want: at max 40% fuel left (otherwise the plane is quite sluggish in turns) and use 1 notch of flaps (though sometimes you can drop to two notches but that should be very very brief). As using the flaps will always result in a quite rapid speed loss, you want to keep that short (mainly when you pull the lead for a shot). Effectively, you don't want to drop below 240-220 mph on the dial anyhow as below that, the 109 will run circles around you (which is the reason you want to avoid turnfighting in the first place). You can turnfight with the 190, though usually they are wise enough not to try that. And normally, if you do that there's always at least two 109s just waiting to jump on your arse to punish you for it:)

 

If you take Burning Skies as an example: You don't want to be the guy first to the fight. Let the Spitfires go in first. They're the best turners, they can put up a good defensive game. Let them tangle up the opposition so they're slower than you. Once the furball has developed, look for the typical german movement (contact going up and down all the time). That's where you want to nail them, at the peak of their climb when they're slow and sluggish just about when they try to line up for a lower target again. Then you dash in, like a bat out of hell, pump them full of lead and boost out again before anyone can stick to you. At distance you turn, climb and wait for the next opportunity to pounce again.

 

I bet Solty will add alot more info here but that's what I would suggest.

+1

I have learned that proper rudder use can make turning much more natural and you can pull more out of your turns that way. Between rudder and throttle I can do pretty well.

For myself, I use to use flaps a lot more for turns in fights but soon learned the lessons of the other posters who are responding. Now, after learning and putting in time against the German AC, I don't really use my flaps at all.

I have been known to deploy them while evading an enemy who is right on my a$$ that I cannot shake. Between the rapid speed loss and turn, I can get them to peel away or overshoot me. The problem for me there is that I cannot just catch up to them and shoot at em because speed recovery is relatively slow, and if I do deploy my flaps in that situation, I make sure that I am in a position to go into an instant dive to gain back my energy. If not, the boogie man will be right back on my tail on no time.

There are guys here who are much better at this thing than I'll ever be. All I know is that what I have learned works for me most of the time.

Ok great tips guys thanks!

"I tried drop 10 degrees then 20 degrees of flap..."

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/352-meyer-12may44.jpg

"I tried drop 10 degrees then 20 degrees of flap..."

 

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/352-meyer-12may44.jpg

thanks for the read Sokol1. the real deal.

Awesome read. "Short burst and instantly caught fire" now i know this is real and not DCS lol

Awesome read. "Short burst and instantly caught fire" now i know this is real and not DCS lol

That's quite relative. It can happen in DCS too if you catch them in convergence range. The damage model is in need of improvement though as stated in many places on the forums. ED is working on it.

That's quite relative. It can happen in DCS too if you catch them in convergence range. The damage model is in need of improvement though as stated in many places on the forums. ED is working on it.

Yeah I feel i can get them into flames quite quickly with 30mil or 20mil weapons but the 50.cal does take a lot more practice. I got some kills yesterday in the mustang after reading and utilizing what some of you had posted before and I really felt a slight improvement! Thanks!:thumbup:

On a side note I went up in a bf109 this morning and got beat up pretty good by a p51 multiple times lol Oh well all part of the learning process i guess

So I'm still pretty new with WWII combat, but have always loved the p51 since I was a kid. I understand aerodynamics as that is my day job. I really struggled against bf109s and spitfires in DCS with the p51. I recently bought the 109 to get a better understanding on how it performs and with the ease of engine management and stall characteristics it is a good place to start to really understanding the art of energy management and WW2 combat I feel. But my deep desire is to shred apart these German aircraft with the p51 like Solty does in burning skies and other really well trained p51 pilots. I've read some threads on tips and handling characteristics of the mustang and notice there is some talk about flaps in turns. My question is how "much" flap do you typically use if in fact you do use them. Do you use flaps "all" the time in turns? Or only when bleeding below corner speed and need that sharp turn.

 

Also would I be wrong in stating that when fighting a 109 if I loose my energy below say 200mph I'm pretty much dead meat?

 

I appreciate any tips and secrets you ACEs out there would be willing to share!

Thanks!

I think arglmauf makes a good point. You want to stay away from dogfighting most of the time and especially get a wingman. You do not have to do anything fancy to win in 2v1.

But since you are asking about it, well basically you need to be sure you want to engage and estimate your opponent's energy. Sometimes you won't use flaps at all, and sometimes you need full landing deflection. It depends on a situation. In most standard engagements you will use 10-20deg just to keep the turn. I usually manipulate my flaps constantly and adjust them to the situation. You might need all the flaps to win scissors at low speed or you.might need just 20deg to pull deflection. If you use too much you can bleed your energy and disadvantage yourself, but if you don't use them at all you can stall and loose your firing opportunity. In most fights you won't need more than 20.

First of all learn standard maneuvers, Immelman, split S, chandelle, scissors, rolling scissors and spiral. Learn to judge the opponent's energy state. Finally practice gunnery. You must take shots with accuracy because most of the time your opponents won't give more than one opportunity to shoot.

Each plane is different, even tough some basic principals are always aplicable, some skills, maneuvers and tactics that make you victorious in the K4, may doom you in the Mustang.

You'll need flap if you intend to turn the 51.

It's wing is designed for low drag(laminar flow wing) so it doesn't have high lift and the airflow separates easily (stall). It's a better fighter if you don't try to turn tight but instead use that energy you would have bled off in the turn to climb. As you slow at the top of the climb you can drop 1 or 2 or even 3 stages of flap to turn tight and come in for another pass, raising flaps as you pick up speed.